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Old 03-20-2017, 06:22 PM   #351
8bus
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Re: NBA Draft 2017

Hero,

Is that because you're a fan of the PAC, specifically a fan of Arizona? Asking for a friend
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Old 03-20-2017, 06:25 PM   #352
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Re: NBA Draft 2017

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Hero,

Is that because you're a fan of the PAC, specifically a fan of Arizona? Asking for a friend
Why, yes, I support the Conference of Champions. Who wouldn't?

But by that logic I could also be biased towards Fultz.
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Old 03-20-2017, 06:33 PM   #353
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Re: NBA Draft 2017

So you might be raids is what I'm getting at
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Old 03-20-2017, 06:35 PM   #354
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Re: NBA Draft 2017

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There's room on the Sindarius Thornwell bandwagon for you former Wiggins snake oil salesmen but you're probably not smart enough to jump on
Only took three years but here we are
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Old 03-20-2017, 06:38 PM   #355
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Re: NBA Draft 2017

Maybe you should consult your friend on that one, 8.
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Old 03-20-2017, 06:48 PM   #356
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Re: NBA Draft 2017

I just realized that if Sacramento binks the #1 pick it goes to Philly.

Then if the Lakers fall to #4 it goes to Philly as well.

So Philly could get the #1 and #4 picks in this draft. So ****ing sick.

They should be forced to bring back Hinkie if that happens.
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Old 03-20-2017, 07:46 PM   #357
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Re: NBA Draft 2017

purely talking defense on lonzo v fultz - it seems to me that it's comparable. but curious to hear alternative arguments

both have the kind of physical advantage over most pgs that should make it possible to be a really strong defender, and back it up with strong stocks numbers. fultz's basic measurables especially are about as ideal as it gets for a pg (6'4, 6'9 span, 190lbs), these compare favorably to strong pg defenders like wall/rubio/george hill. he's also a bit beefier than ball which may help in crossmatching more

one argument against fultz here is that his path to eliteness is probably being a harden type of guy on offense and it's hard to maintain a lot of defensive effort with that kind of burden (in theory, i personally think this is a bit of an excuse since much of defense is about cerebrally avoiding mistakes moreso than competing with manic energy). lonzo is so good at keeping the offense humming without the ball in his hands that he theoretically should be able to maintain defensive focus. that said, both seem a bit lazy by nature anyway
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Old 03-20-2017, 07:48 PM   #358
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Re: NBA Draft 2017

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Originally Posted by Wooders0n View Post
Every team should take Lonzo first imo. He's a generational player. After that it becomes a lot more interesting.

If Fultz goes ahead of him it's going to be like an era defining catastrophic mistake for whichever team does that
Totally agree with this.

Huge size at PG
Elite vision and creativity
Decision making and unselfishness
Oh and he's shooting > 40% from 3pt on > 5 3pa/game

Like he could have a microfracture of both legs and still be a rotation player
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Old 03-20-2017, 08:12 PM   #359
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Re: NBA Draft 2017

Lonzo should also age better than Fultz for previously stated reasons.
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Old 03-20-2017, 09:08 PM   #360
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Re: NBA Draft 2017

how often does a player with lonzo's 3pt shooting stats turn out to be not actually that good of a shooter? i guess the answer is not super often, but it's a small sample size, and the ft% is concerning. a recent example is brandon ingram, who shot >5 3s a game at >40% last year yet has been a bad shooter in the nba so far (as his 68% college fts may have suggested) - early days for him though

looking at this list, most of the future nba guys ended up being fine 3pt shooters, so i guess you probably have to assume lonzo is going to be at least average most of the time:
players who shot >5 3s @ >40% since 2001


of course, exactly the same red flag can be raised for fultz who's ft% is even worse than lonzo's. fultz's overall lack of efficiency is mostly tied to his reliance on midrangers and bad ft%. i think there's a few reasons to be a bit more confident in his 3pt shot though:
- while you can argue shooting lots of midrangers is bad, fultz at least seems good at it: 40% of shots @ 44%
- shoots harder jumpers generally than lonzo, more off the dribble etc, and his shot seems more versatile
- pretty form

Last edited by mcb33f; 03-20-2017 at 09:15 PM.
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Old 03-20-2017, 09:11 PM   #361
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Re: NBA Draft 2017

Lonzo can only shoot when he dribbles to the left. Good luck itl
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Old 03-20-2017, 09:45 PM   #362
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Re: NBA Draft 2017

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As someone (the only one?) who watched every UW and every UCLA game this year, let me be the 8th person itt to say:

Fultz is simply not on Lonzo's level. Lonzo is just soooo much smarter (manifests on O and D) and lowkey is ~athlete as Fultz. Lonzo is arguably better one on one, and Fultz doesn't come near to Lonzo in making his teammates better. Lonzo can make ~every play. And if he can't, and this is important b/c I'm not sure I can say the same about anyone else in the class, he will FIGURE IT OUT. He is just that smart.

Saying he's not very good at D betrays a very limited viewing of Bruins basketball. He is elite at using his size and length to shed ball-screeners, and has extremely quick feet and quick reactions to close out and contest shooters. He protects the rim. He grabs contested bounds on both sides. He makes "window" passes that few even see. He's very underrated at rim finishing.

He's just a lock HOF, and I'd bet my life on it Bin Laden dot jpg.
Then why hasn't he figured out he isn't gonna get that shot of his off vs a lot of nba defenders.

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Old 03-20-2017, 10:02 PM   #363
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Re: NBA Draft 2017

So basically Fultz/Ball ceiling is GOATpg. I like Ball better but im biased i imagine from seeing alot more Ball this season. Everytime ive watched him hes been lights out so that helps his case.

With all these good pg prospects(2elite 4good-really good) coming out i imagine theirs going to be a later first or 2nd round pg who ends up looking like a steal a few years from now as well.Wonder who that guy is going to be.
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Old 03-20-2017, 11:29 PM   #364
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Re: NBA Draft 2017

Fultz just seems like a great scorer. Nothing more. Can we honestly say he's shown more than that? Sure UW hasn't been the place to highlight much else but I'm not sure that puts his ceiling especially high at this point. He's very skilled but also plays slow, almost deliberately so. I wonder if he's really that agility will stay elite moving over to the NBA.

On the other hand, I've notice Lonzo also is very deliberate with his decisions, like for example his passes. They're just so quick, well timed and perfectly placed there's not a lot that can be done.
#CoC
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Old 03-21-2017, 12:20 AM   #365
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Re: NBA Draft 2017

fultz is def a very strong passer, 6apg is good, and his overall turnover rate is low for the huge usg he shoulders. he also gets a lot of stocks + has good rebounding numbers too

it's not fair to chartacterise him as a purely ball dominant guy either imo, scouting reports note his willingness to make simple/effective plays and to play off the ball at times
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Old 03-21-2017, 12:25 AM   #366
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Re: NBA Draft 2017

Not taking lonzo first is just pure fps. The rest of the lottery is super interesting bro speculate about.
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Old 03-21-2017, 12:50 AM   #367
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Re: NBA Draft 2017

Quote:
Originally Posted by Wooders0n View Post
Every team should take Lonzo first imo. He's a generational player. After that it becomes a lot more interesting.

If Fultz goes ahead of him it's going to be like an era defining catastrophic mistake for whichever team does that
Quote:
Originally Posted by GeoffRas22 View Post
It blows my mind that anyone else is in the discussion. He's so good. Fultz isn't close to him as a passer or a shooter. It's legit a taller Steph Curry with LeBron's court vision. Obv he isn't as good as either at those things but those are his comps imo. He just makes it look so easy. It will be the biggest mistake since Darko>Melo/Wade/Bosh if Fultz (or anyone else) goes #1.

I saw someone earlier say that if Ball goes to LA it's bye bye Russell. Both are good shooters, and Ball has the height/length to cross-match, why can't the play together? Ball/Russell/Ingram/Randle/Zubac would be sweet. If the Knacks get Ball they have title equity next year. He's what STAPS needs.
Strongly disagree with all of this.

Lonzo is great, sure. But saying he is worlds ahead of Fultz is ridiculous and wrong.

Lonzo has only mediocre-decent athleticism and as great a passer and as smart a player as he is, he actually is not an elite ball handler. If you watch him, he actually very rarely puts his head down and drives to the hoop--and when he does, he goes right and often gets stopped (though he is very capable of finding a cutter or spot up shooter in these situations). His size, while a HUGE asset in college will merely serve just as an equalizer on the next level given that many guards that are smaller can jump just as high. And the funky delivery on his shot, while it works for him and he clearly shoots at a high clip, may be a problem at the next level anyway because he will get blocked much easier than he would if he had more standard mechanics.

Dissimilarly, Fultz has basically no weaknesses. It's true that he may not literally have GOAT potential, but he basically becomes Dame like always. I don't think Ball has literal GOAT potential either, unless he vastly improves in his ability to drive and score outside of jumpshooting.

I think Ball is probably #2, but I would take Fultz #1. If you think Ball is #1 I wouldn't have an hours long debate with you (even though I disagree), but if you think Ball isn't even close to Fultz than I would.
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Old 03-21-2017, 02:57 AM   #368
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Re: NBA Draft 2017

Lonzo is extremely athletic. Harden is a good comp, frankly. Lonzo has more bounce tho.
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Old 03-21-2017, 04:29 AM   #369
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Re: NBA Draft 2017

yeah Im on the fultz > Ball train. I think Ball has a higher floor but I think we are getting ahead of ourselves on these comps. Fultz I think hasn't really tapped his potential (well neither has, but bigger room to grow imo) hes a late riser, I believe he played JV basketball as a sophomore, while Ball has been groomed to be a NBA pg for life. While I trust Ball to be a better decision maker, I don't think hes a great athlete for a NBA starting PG, and not sure I believe his 3 point shooting %s. I don't have the stats in front of me but Im sure Fultz 3s attempts were a much higher difficulty
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Old 03-21-2017, 04:30 AM   #370
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Re: NBA Draft 2017

Quote:
Originally Posted by Heroball View Post
Lonzo is extremely athletic. Harden is a good comp, frankly. Lonzo has more bounce tho.
Look at the top 15 PGs in the world. Almost all of them (hard to say obv but maybe 10-11?) are better athletes than Ball.
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Old 03-21-2017, 06:27 AM   #371
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Re: NBA Draft 2017

on difficulty of fultz's 3s, 45% off them were unassisted which is comparable to lillard's senior year (lillard higher volume though)
Quote:
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Look at the top 15 PGs in the world. Almost all of them (hard to say obv but maybe 10-11?) are better athletes than Ball.
i disagree with this but the harden comp doesn't make sense to me, harden was like 220lbs coming in and ball is a rake. ball isn't gonna go through guys like harden can, doesn't have the strength or length let alone the skillz

imo ball is a strong athlete for a pg though, how many pgs can do stuff like this (the 3 dunks from his debut)? i think basically none tbh, because pgs rarely dunk and lonzo is really big for a pg. other pgs have their own advantages over ball too but it's wrong to imply that his athleticism is going to be some barrier to him being good


as an aside, some trivia on the top 5 pg dunkers this year:
Spoiler:

Spoiler:

Spoiler:

Spoiler:

Spoiler:

Last edited by mcb33f; 03-21-2017 at 06:47 AM.
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Old 03-21-2017, 08:06 AM   #372
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Re: NBA Draft 2017

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on difficulty of fultz's 3s, 45% off them were unassisted which is comparable to lillard's senior year (lillard higher volume though) i disagree with this but the harden comp doesn't make sense to me, harden was like 220lbs coming in and ball is a rake. ball isn't gonna go through guys like harden can, doesn't have the strength or length let alone the skillz

imo ball is a strong athlete for a pg though, how many pgs can do stuff like this (the 3 dunks from his debut)? i think basically none tbh, because pgs rarely dunk and lonzo is really big for a pg. other pgs have their own advantages over ball too but it's wrong to imply that his athleticism is going to be some barrier to him being good


as an aside, some trivia on the top 5 pg dunkers this year:
Spoiler:

Spoiler:

Spoiler:

Spoiler:

Spoiler:
Lillard is Fultz upside imo. And I think he gets there or close pretty often.

I would take Lonzo over Lillard for most teams.
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Old 03-21-2017, 09:49 AM   #373
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Re: NBA Draft 2017

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Look at the top 15 PGs in the world. Almost all of them (hard to say obv but maybe 10-11?) are better athletes than Ball.
Look at the top 6 PG's of all time:

Magic
CP3
Stockton
Nash
Kidd
Curry

How many of those guys are super athletes?

PG is all about skill and brains. There is the occasional Russ superman act, but most of the great athlete PG's are not historically good.
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Old 03-21-2017, 11:00 AM   #374
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Re: NBA Draft 2017

Yeah this isnt athletics it's basketball. And lol at worrying about Ball's shoot ing mechanic. He will be fine.
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Old 03-21-2017, 11:38 AM   #375
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Re: NBA Draft 2017

He can't shoot going right. Ugliest form in the league
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