Because people complain about long green flag runs being too boring. I mean damned if you do damned if you don't. There's no way for them to predict how aggressive the race is gonna go and how many cautions are gonna come out because of it. Most Daytona 500s don't get that wild that early, and it's not like it went absurdly long, they got somewhere to be? Just sounds like complaining to complain.

Denny is so butthurt over this Bubba stuff. Even calling people morons in comments.

@dennyhamlin

Let me clue the idiots on Twitter what I was pissed off about. I had no issue with how the race ended. I was minding my own business on the bottom of the track and out of the blue I get ran into, my tire blown, and perfectly straight car destroyed. I’m good with all that.

Then, I go do media and everything is fine. Then the last question is what was my response to what Bubba said. I had no issue until not only did he place blame on me but then went on to make personal comments about myself. I left the media center and saw Bubba 30 secs later.

Anyone who wouldn’t take offense to the stupid things that was said has absolutely no backbone. I have one

They've made their share of bad moves, but I can tell ya stages isn't one of them. The entire system was designed to reward complete regular season performance and overall race performance at these checkpoints. It does a fantastic job at that.

It more accurately reflects how a race team has been running on track than any previous. You can't just show up at the end of the race and get your finish anymore. Qualifying is even more valued now because of stage 1 points.

There are so many tweaks they could do to improve on it, but it's plenty good and simple enough. More reward for laps led would be nice.

Damn, sounds like he's still shook from the Chase Elliott debacle.

Solid rant . Enjoyed.

They ought to race on figure 8s.

It's easier to pack the house when you remove tens of thousands of seats. The Jax Jaguars figured this out a while ago.

Heard a lot of the bolded too lol

Guy sitting next to me said that thing about plate racing almost word for word.

ETA: And yes I agree with a lot of what you are saying here, but simply labeling disgruntled fans as "complainers" and handwaiving their concerns is probably not a good strat for shoring up sagging ratings and popularity. I think it's important to listen to these folks even if we disagree with some of their complaints. These are the people who are still loyal fans. They're the ones still sticking with NASCAR..for now, anyway.

Just ask Larry McReynolds his race trends beforehand!

Does Larry not work for Fox Sports? His voice was noticeably absent from the telecast unless I just missed it. I don't remember seeing him during breaks either.

Yes, but we're still talking well over 100K people in attendance, that's a lot for any sporting event, and they remodeled the whole thing at Daytona International recently. Removing undesirable seating I'm fine with.

You can't please everyone, and I'm not sure they're in the majority of those that actually watch the races and know a thing or two. They won't be happy until Brian France is gone and things return to the 80's 90's which is never gonna happen.

Do you think if they submit to their requests there will be an increase in viewership?

Ha didn't realize this happened post race with Bubba/Hamlin. Get the guy breaking it up out of there! Seriously, they need more of this on spotlight, not less. They would do much better than trying to rely on really good racing alone.




Here's the onboard for Hamlin on the last restart. Lol at driving him into the wall just for getting into him coming to the line on a plate track, jesus he's sensitive. Don't touch me!

I kinda disagree with the point that sport hasn't "fallen flat on its face." If the steep decline in attendance and ratings doesn't qualify as falling on its face, I don't want to see what does.

LIke I wrote earlier, I am an old guy. I remember how huge IndyCar racing was in the 1980s and into the '90s. I never really thought Indy Cars would would decline to the point where people only care about that form of racing one day a year in the U.S. I don't want to see NASCAR continue to slide toward an Indy Car abyss.

IMO, it is amazing how much NASCAR has followed Indy Car's decline and mistakes. Not all of these items are NASCAR's fault, but some of them certainly are And this list doesn't even address the horrific ******* up of the points system to the degree where the champion actually missed 30 percent of the races a few years ago:

1) Let’s make the racing way too expensive and create barriers to entry for local heroes/grass roots dirt trackers to race with you (Kyle Larson is perhaps the best American dirt-track/open wheel racer since Tony Stewart, and even Larson talked openly about no one other than Chip Ganassi having any interest in him at all unless he would bring at least a half-million dollars to the table).

2) Create a “club” structure furthering those barriers

3) Schedule a bunch of races at tracks that are incredibly boring (Indy cars have their impassable street circuits and NASCAR has their sleep-inducing 1.5 miles ovals.

4) When the top guys start retiring, they are replaced with rich, bland, unrelatable young guys who have little fan following.

One thing NASCAR does at least have going for it is that at least they weren't stupid enough to split into two series.

Many of the items you listed as complaints are silly and ridiculous. No one complains about making the sport safer. But the ******* up of the points system is a big one because it completely takes away a major reason for watching the sport when the champion is determined by a fluke or a gimmick.

I agree. It is completely silly and ridiculous that people complain about the items I listed.

Yes, people do complain about making the sport safer. If you don't think there was a ton of bitching when they did away with racing back to the line when a caution came out, you're kidding yourself.

Yes, people complain about restrictor plates, which are for the sole purpose of safety. Safety for the drivers and the fans.

People bitched tremendously about the points system when drivers would A) have the championship locked up before Homestead, or B) all they had to do was start that race to earn enough points to lock it up. The current playoff format guarantees the last race of the season will decide the champion. Just like it should. Without it, you have a looooong season that just ends. No exciting finale. No drama. Just a 400 mile victory parade.

I'm trying to picture baseball, basketball, hockey, or football just ending after the regular season. No playoffs. No Super Bowl. No World Series. Best regular season record is the champion. Riveting stuff.

I don't really think that restrictor plates make the racing safer at all. Anything that nearly guarantees half the field will get destroyed in huge accidents in the Talladega and Daytona races isn't making the races safer. That's not to say cars should go 230 at Daytona and Talladega, either. Rusty Wallace tested a Cup car without a plate a number of years ago, and he said the car was completely unstable.

But destroying the field every Daytona and Talladega race isn't much about safety. Almost to a man, the drivers don't think restrictor plates make the racing safer.

As far as not having a Super Bowl or World Series, racing is racing; it's not the stick and ball sports. Trying to become baseball or football hasn't worked well at all over the past decade, IMO.

I disagree that the last race of the season should automatically have phony, nonsense BS drama for the championship. If the championship is decided prior to the last race of the season or has multiple drivers in contention going into the last race, either scenario is fine. Creating fake drama so someone can fluke into the championship is not, IMO.

The issue is, at speeds they'd run without restrictor plates, cars would be constantly going airborne. Obviously that's not to say it doesn't still happen, but nowhere near to the extent it would if cars were constantly running 215-220+. They wouldn't be able to keep them out of the stands. I actually enjoyed the 2x2 racing of a handful of years back as it was more like "normal" racing, but with groups of 2 instead of single cars. Unfortunately, not everyone felt the same way. I also enjoy the pack racing, except for when they run single file for 90% of the race.

I agree racing is different than other sports. However, they didn't change the format just for the sake of making changes. It's because people complained. Repeatedly. They didn't want the end of the season to not matter, and they wanted wins to be more important so teams would go for wins instead of settling for top 5's.......so here we are. I love that drivers just have to get into the playoffs to have a chance at a championship. I also love that a relative unknown can luck up and win a race during the season, and have a shot at the championship. A Cinderella story if you will. I was also fine with previous, non elimination, versions of the chase. When the top 10-12 got in, points reset, and you got bonus points for each win you had on the year.

I'm less worried about the points structure and more concerned with the on track product.

Hard to believe at one point they didn't even have pit road speed limits. You couldn't pay me enough to be an over the wall pit crew member in that era.

Like I said, I recognize that running without a plate isn't a solution when Bill Elliott was already going 212 at Talladega 30 years ago. But wadding up the field every plate race isn't a good alternative, either.

Considering how much most of the drivers hate plate racing, taking downforce out of the cars to the point where drivers actually to have lift in the corners would be preferable to either running 230 or with a restrictor plate.

I have even considered in the past if going to a separate engine package for Daytona and Talladega would not be more feasible thank junking half the field at the plate tracks.

If you ever visit other message boards when a NASCAR article pops up there's a slew of commenters that will say "NASCAR's dead" "I wouldn't be surprised if NASCAR die's off soon" it's demonstrably all negative comments by non-fans or former-fans that used to watch but don't anymore. That is what I'm referring to, since there seems to be a group that think it will completely go away. I ask them for a prediction date of when this will happen, or this is a timeless prediction. (I don't think you or Namath are in this group)

As far as attendance/ratings go I think you have to factor in the most relatable and popular driver in NASCAR retiring. And, an entire host of other factors including cord-cutting major networks. Certainly certain tracks have experienced "steep" decline in attendance, but other's have not and sell out frequently as we already saw at DIS, so I'm not sure how that qualifies as a bad sign. It's also a very weather dependent situation. This has been discussed, and there are tracks that should be cut from the schedule or reduced to 1 race only for viewing reasons.

I like that you bring up the points system of Kyle Busch's 2015 championship year? That was actually a great story to come back from a shattered leg at Daytona, but I recognize that would never happen under the old points system. It would also be highly improbable under the current points system since your achievements during the regular season now carry over throughout the playoffs, with the exception of Homestead. I do agree that the Chase was the worst point system they've ever had as far as determining the Championship. My ideal point system would be this current one with stages all season long without the playoffs, but in most years that would probably end things before they even get to Homestead or earlier which I'm not sure would be the best choice for business.


By "series" I'm guessing you mean a competitor to NASCAR because they're running multiple series which I think might be the next pressing item they'll have to address at some point. I mean some of these non-fans probably turn on the TV Saturday's and think lol attendance when it's just a truck race or an Xfinity race. They may need to consolidate these to add competition to the back half of the Cup series. It just seems that they are spread really thin in that department. I noticed they're using the older model cup cars in the Arca series now, so maybe just use that and the Trucks as developmental, and send Xfinity to Cup.

Predominantly, I post on dirt track racing message boards. I grew loving all forms of racing, although my parents started taking me to local dirt tracks at just a couple months of age. My father wrenched on various Northeast dirt Modifieds for several decades. Over a 10-12 year period from my late teens all through my 20s, i averaged 100-110 races (primarily dirt) a year attended.

In the last five to 10 years or so, I would say that the majority of fans on the boards I post have grown disillusioned and/or indifferent to NASCAR. These aren't non-racing fans who hate the sport or don't know what they are talking about. These are people who loved NASCAR, grew up around racing, watched every race other than when they were attending a race in person. NASCAR has lost those types of fans by the millions in recent years.

NASCAR isn't going to die off. It is still the most widely watched form of racing in the U.S. IndyCar racing hasn't died off; it just slid further and further into irrelevance with each passing year.

I'm not sure how long you have been a racing fan, but ARCA has always been a place for Cup teams to sell their used equipment.

One of my nerdy hobbies is collecting old sports cards. I have posted a link below to the PSA card grading registry for the 1972 STP NASCAR set. Baseball will always far outpace everything else when it comes to card values, but that set is the forefather of NASCAR cards. Racing cards are certainly a niche segment of a niche hobby.

https://www.psacard.com/psasetregist...tp-racing/6172

I have been a racing fan in general my whole life. The reason I posted the link is because I wanted to show that I am not some NASCAR hater. I have one of only two complete sets of 1972 STP cards. It took me probably 10 years to put together that set because of how difficult some of the cards are to find.

It is only an 11-card set, but the Fred Lorenzen with car card and the Bobby Allison card are all but impossible to find. The cards were available for free courtesy of STP at the 1972 Daytona 500, and the rare cards in particular have sharply risen in value over the years (although nothing like major cards from the stick and ball sports).

Yes and that's an entirely different sub-set of former-fans. A lot of them have stopped watching completely years ago well before this year ever began. I would argue that is not recent years at all. They absolutely know what they're are talking about in regards to racing, and they continue to harp on the same things that made them stop watching whether it's the Chase, the COT, Brian France, changes every year, the 48 winning, Junior not winning enough, whatever it is. I mean 2007 depression didn't help out NASCAR any either. But, they certainly pissed off a large number hardcore race fans with their changes.

Haha yeah ARCA with the old equipment. Different model than last year.

I've been watching NASCAR since the early 90's, and I think it's important to point out the move to the playoff system didn't just come out of nowhere. It was mostly a business decision in what NASCAR was already experiencing some measure of decline in ratings, and simultaneously egged on by fans bored with seeing the Championship locked up before the very last race (as EC Outlaw already pointed out above). NASCAR had also been researching ways to reward wins versus the ever exciting points racing in years previous.

This brewed the perfect storm for 2003 Kenseth/Newman which I'll just quote here: