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Old 05-14-2008, 12:12 AM   #1951
Seadood228
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

I'd be shocked if the guy I'm thinking about doesn't go in the next couple picks. Looks like a steal given this format.
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Old 05-14-2008, 12:13 AM   #1952
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

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Quickly, IMO Hill >>> Pippen.
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Old 05-14-2008, 12:13 AM   #1953
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

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It was a freak injury that got brutalized due to Hill's wanting to prove himself to the Piston fans.
post in the modern draft (and post your summary later) and PM whoever is next. IM ITCHIN TO PICK

and i wanted hill
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Old 05-14-2008, 12:14 AM   #1954
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

Its funny that the Suns had 4 of the top 32 picks in this draft on their team this year (albeit a combo of Nash, Stoudamire, Shaq/Marion) and a guy who will be a top 100 pick (Hill) and they nearly got swept in the playoffs this year. Wow.

EDIT: Make that 5 of the top 33 picks in the draft with 4 man combos. Unreal. Can I just take this current Suns team with everyone of them in their primes? (I think this would be the greatest team ever)
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Old 05-14-2008, 12:14 AM   #1955
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

Marion has great team skills to build around but I wonder if you should be concerned about his pissy attitude and fragile ego? Attitude = overrated IMO but has to be a factor when choosing between him and a bunch of borderline hall of famers.
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Old 05-14-2008, 12:14 AM   #1956
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

Is it too late for me to join this thing? I is good as a GM on NBA Live
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Old 05-14-2008, 12:14 AM   #1957
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

Marion...?




terrible pick imo
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Old 05-14-2008, 12:15 AM   #1958
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

I discussed this with tbach and told him to PM assani about Grant Hill, no idea on the official ruling, but...
If Grant Hill's injury is deemed a freak accident, Tbach made the pick of the draft, because Grant Hill pre injury was equal to or better then every pick outside of the top 5. (And arguably better then Bird)
If Grant Hill's injury is deemed a recurring theme, then Tbach blew his first pick and must win immediately, because when Grant Hill misses 80% of the games over 6 years, he'll be stretched THIN.

So... Any word from Fisher on this?

About Marion: Gut reaction is terrible pick, but after looking at numbers, and what you say about him, I actually really like the pick. The main question of course is can he be a #1 option (I say no) because he's never even thrived as a #2 option. He has some obvious holes offensively, but people DO forget what a beast defensively he is. And Tdarko is right, he can fit into a bunch of different schemes.
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Old 05-14-2008, 12:17 AM   #1959
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

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Originally Posted by DontRaisePlz View Post
Marion has great team skills to build around but I wonder if you should be concerned about his pissy attitude and fragile ego? Attitude = overrated IMO but has to be a factor when choosing between him and a bunch of borderline hall of famers.
Just wait till I take Chuck Daly in the 2nd round.
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Old 05-14-2008, 12:17 AM   #1960
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

Quote:
Originally Posted by BobboFitos View Post
I discussed this with tbach and told him to PM assani about Grant Hill, no idea on the official ruling, but...
If Grant Hill's injury is deemed a freak accident, Tbach made the pick of the draft, because Grant Hill pre injury was equal to or better then every pick outside of the top 5. (And arguably better then Bird)
If Grant Hill's injury is deemed a recurring theme, then Tbach blew his first pick and must win immediately, because when Grant Hill misses 80% of the games over 6 years, he'll be stretched THIN.

So... Any word from Fisher on this?

About Marion: Gut reaction is terrible pick, but after looking at numbers, and what you say about him, I actually really like the pick. The main question of course is can he be a #1 option (I say no) because he's never even thrived as a #2 option. He has some obvious holes offensively, but people DO forget what a beast defensively he is. And Tdarko is right, he can fit into a bunch of different schemes.
Agree with most of this. I think that finding a #1 option won't be difficult, and Marion fills a lot of holes. Also, he's as good as anyone without the ball.
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Old 05-14-2008, 12:19 AM   #1961
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

Quote:
So... Any word from Fisher on this?
I begged people to discuss the injury thing more in the middle of the thread and only two things happened. People agreed that things like Hills injuries count against those players, and people whined that I was mentioning specific players.
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Old 05-14-2008, 12:20 AM   #1962
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

Van Exel Fan was on the other thread. Hopefully he's reading these.
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Old 05-14-2008, 12:20 AM   #1963
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

Marion is ok, though I like a few guys more. Hill as I mentioned above loses key productive years then goes down for the count.
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Old 05-14-2008, 12:20 AM   #1964
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

lol if Grant Hill's injury problems are ignored when evaluating this pick.
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Old 05-14-2008, 12:21 AM   #1965
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

grant hill had injury problems in college (including a serious injury to the same left ankle and also his knee)

i went through his old injury reports, and found this 1995 draft guide along with it:

"Strengths: Rebounding, incredible athleticism and body control, passing, ballhandling for a big man, defense, versatility, scoring potential, poise, intelligence, decision-making
Weaknesses: Streaky shooter, limited range, has had injury problems
...
His only weak spot is his shooting. His shot has improved greatly since coming to Duke, but he's still not a great shooter. He also might be a little reticent at first to take his jumper. He's also been injury-prone at times in his career, although he was healthy this year. Grant might take awhile to take charge of a team he's on, but within two years, he should be a major impact player."

http://www.ibiblio.org/craig/draft/1.../scout/sf.html

that said, i was too young to know what was going on regarding public opinion at the time, and if he was available at #41 i would have definitely taken him (and had info/stats ready to support the pick)
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Old 05-14-2008, 12:22 AM   #1966
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

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Old 05-14-2008, 12:22 AM   #1967
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

Quote:
Originally Posted by BobboFitos View Post
I discussed this with tbach and told him to PM assani about Grant Hill, no idea on the official ruling, but...
If Grant Hill's injury is deemed a freak accident, Tbach made the pick of the draft, because Grant Hill pre injury was equal to or better then every pick outside of the top 5. (And arguably better then Bird)
If Grant Hill's injury is deemed a recurring theme, then Tbach blew his first pick and must win immediately, because when Grant Hill misses 80% of the games over 6 years, he'll be stretched THIN.

So... Any word from Fisher on this?

About Marion: Gut reaction is terrible pick, but after looking at numbers, and what you say about him, I actually really like the pick. The main question of course is can he be a #1 option (I say no) because he's never even thrived as a #2 option. He has some obvious holes offensively, but people DO forget what a beast defensively he is. And Tdarko is right, he can fit into a bunch of different schemes.
I PMed him back...he can post it publicly if he wants. BAsically I said that the rules were clear that we were "re-doing" history and that a guy who was injured by chance is no more likely to have that injury than anyone else. However the players have the same body types and skillsets so if someone is injury prone then he is still injury prone in this league. How everyone interprets those rules is up to them, and I"m no more qualified than anyone else to say so regarding Hill.
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Old 05-14-2008, 12:24 AM   #1968
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

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Originally Posted by ClarkNasty View Post
I begged people to discuss the injury thing more in the middle of the thread and only two things happened. People agreed that things like Hills injuries count against those players, and people whined that I was mentioning specific players.
I don't think its necessary to discuss as the rules are clear what we are doing. It is very unclear whether certain players truly were injury prone or if they were just unlucky in this "run through".....and thats up for each individual drafter to decide.
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Old 05-14-2008, 12:25 AM   #1969
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

Quote:
Originally Posted by KLJ View Post
grant hill had injury problems in college (including a serious injury to the same left ankle and also his knee)

i went through his old injury reports, and found this 1995 draft guide along with it:

"Strengths: Rebounding, incredible athleticism and body control, passing, ballhandling for a big man, defense, versatility, scoring potential, poise, intelligence, decision-making
Weaknesses: Streaky shooter, limited range, has had injury problems
...
His only weak spot is his shooting. His shot has improved greatly since coming to Duke, but he's still not a great shooter. He also might be a little reticent at first to take his jumper. He's also been injury-prone at times in his career, although he was healthy this year. Grant might take awhile to take charge of a team he's on, but within two years, he should be a major impact player."

http://www.ibiblio.org/craig/draft/1.../scout/sf.html

that said, i was too young to know what was going on regarding public opinion at the time, and if he was available at #41 i would have definitely taken him (and had info/stats ready to support the pick)
This scouting report would greatly support the side that says he was indeed injury prone imo.
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Old 05-14-2008, 12:27 AM   #1970
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

Quote:
Originally Posted by Assani Fisher View Post
I PMed him back...he can post it publicly if he wants. BAsically I said that the rules were clear that we were "re-doing" history and that a guy who was injured by chance is no more likely to have that injury than anyone else. However the players have the same body types and skillsets so if someone is injury prone then he is still injury prone in this league. How everyone interprets those rules is up to them, and I"m no more qualified than anyone else to say so regarding Hill.
Assani, you need to have a stronger stance then this.
IMO, given what was just posted, Grant Hill WILL be very injury prone, and could potentially miss out on his peak years, like what happened in real life.

My question then, can you give me examples of freak injuries that will be washed away?
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Old 05-14-2008, 12:28 AM   #1971
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

I was going to take Hill if he slipped to me - he was a monster when healthy. I really feel that we need to clarify this injury thing - it has a ridiculously huge impact on the value of many players. Let's use Hill as an example. You draft Hill, you enjoy 4 super-productive years, what happens next? Is he injured 100% of the time after that in our league? 80%? 50%? 25%? Obviously we won't come up with an exact %, but we need some sort of framework that everyone understands.
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Old 05-14-2008, 12:29 AM   #1972
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

The injury thing is such a grey area its ridiculous.

What isn't a freak injury? Christ, some were arguing Zo's kidney problems was a freak injury.
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Old 05-14-2008, 12:29 AM   #1973
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

Um, Grant Hill's injured career will be taken in account in this thing.

I will say that I am confused on what is defined as an "unlucky" injury? This is very vague. Unlucky could be going up for a board and landing on an opponents shoe and tearing your ACL, but it is still the injury that causes problems etc. I mean if a guy comes out of the stands and beats the **** out of Hill w/ a bat breaking all of his bones--yea that would be unlucky in the vaguest sense. But if we are going to be serious for a second, most injuries are unlucky--it still is weighed in when making your decision though.
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Old 05-14-2008, 12:30 AM   #1974
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

Franchise- jinx?
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Old 05-14-2008, 12:30 AM   #1975
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

also, some injuries are more/less likely to happen. for example:
mourning's kidney thing, mcgrady's back, francis' inner ear problem are inevitabilities

most players' freak knee injuries are unpredictable (and somewhat more random), but more likely if they're athletic and/or changing planes a lot

players that have joint problems (namely ankles and dislocated shoulders) are generally chronic injuries that get hurt and re-hurt a lot.

big guys (yao, muresan, etc) are obviously more likely to get hurt due to general joint stress and people just not being made to be that big.

you get the point.
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