Two Plus Two Publishing LLC Two Plus Two Publishing LLC
 

Go Back   Two Plus Two Poker Forums > >

Sporting Events Discussion centered around sporting events.

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 05-13-2008, 02:13 PM   #1776
capone0
Carpal \'Tunnel
 
capone0's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: Philly
Posts: 43,034
Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

Quote:
Originally Posted by horizon View Post
Paul is 23 and averaged this season more points than Nash never has.

It's only b/c Paul takes more shots. Honestly to me I'd take Paul over Nash in a heart beat but Nash is a more efficient scorer. Nash shot an amazing 47% from 3 this year. His pps is 1.42 this year to Paul's 1.3. I think Passing wise they are similar in skill but scoring wise Nash might actually be a better/more efficient scorer. He just doesn't take as many shots as CP3.
capone0 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-13-2008, 02:16 PM   #1777
tbach24
Carpal \'Tunnel
 
tbach24's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: @tbach2
Posts: 11,476
Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

Also, Nash is a MUCH easier player to build around.
tbach24 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-13-2008, 02:17 PM   #1778
capone0
Carpal \'Tunnel
 
capone0's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: Philly
Posts: 43,034
Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion Thread

Quote:
Originally Posted by tbach24 View Post
Year 2: Phoenix finishes 54-28, squeaks by the 2 LA teams in the first two rounds, then loses to Dallas in 6. One little thing, AMARE STOUDEMIRE DIDN'T EVEN PLAY THAT SEASON.
They got their due to a botch in the system though which was fixed the year after. They were at best the 3rd best team in the WC that year and yes they beat 2 LA teams who were mediocre at best. Not saying doing well without Amare isn't amazing, it is. I just think their WCF appearance was a lot to do with seeding.
capone0 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-13-2008, 02:19 PM   #1779
capone0
Carpal \'Tunnel
 
capone0's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: Philly
Posts: 43,034
Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

Quote:
Originally Posted by tbach24 View Post
Also, Nash is a MUCH easier player to build around.
How so? You need athletic players which there are a lot of, but to win it all you need really skilled athletic players that can play D, which there are not a ton of. I don't think building around any PG is going to be easier than another if they have similar skillsets. 1 big thing with building around Nash over Paul is your going to have to have somebody to help defensively ie great player in the paint like the Spurs have for Parker.
capone0 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-13-2008, 02:21 PM   #1780
tbach24
Carpal \'Tunnel
 
tbach24's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: @tbach2
Posts: 11,476
Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion Thread

Quote:
Originally Posted by capone0 View Post
They got their due to a botch in the system though which was fixed the year after. They were at best the 3rd best team in the WC that year and yes they beat 2 LA teams who were mediocre at best. Not saying doing well without Amare isn't amazing, it is. I just think their WCF appearance was a lot to do with seeding.
You're absolutely right. It's just impressive that they pushed that Dallas team (which was great) to 6 games.
tbach24 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-13-2008, 02:24 PM   #1781
tbach24
Carpal \'Tunnel
 
tbach24's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: @tbach2
Posts: 11,476
Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

Quote:
Originally Posted by capone0 View Post
How so? You need athletic players which there are a lot of, but to win it all you need really skilled athletic players that can play D, which there are not a ton of. I don't think building around any PG is going to be easier than another if they have similar skillsets. 1 big thing with building around Nash over Paul is your going to have to have somebody to help defensively ie great player in the paint like the Spurs have for Parker.
I think you just outlined it. There's a number of players who can play defense and have a great singular offensive skill (be it shooting or finishing) which a great player like Nash can use to the team's advantage.
tbach24 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-13-2008, 02:31 PM   #1782
BiiiiigChips
Carpal \'Tunnel
 
BiiiiigChips's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: SOCAL
Posts: 7,465
Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion Thread

Quote:
Originally Posted by Seadood228 View Post
I don't really like the pick. As a young player, his game is already on the decline. He only shoots a fairly high percentage because he's doesn't shoot an average guard's % of threes (hi monta). He's also a turnover machine who played very poorly on the defensive end last year.

More importantly, he's not a great shooter and his game is predicated on contact, which will be difficult to maintain for a career. He needs to become a more proficient jump-shooter, and I've seen nothing that would lead me to believe that he's capable of that.

[edit] As far as playoff toughness, he's only had 1 year of stellar play in the post season. So 1/4 of his playoff years he got extremely hot and didn't turn the ball over all the time.. I'm willing to dismiss that 1 time as variance.
He was great in the playoffs in 03-04 for his first go around averaging 18 points and about 6 assists. He had an immediate presence and hit some clutch shots. In 04-05 he had a playoff run that I would consider stellar avg 27 6 and 5 a game with his team just missing out on the NBA Finals. Of course the championship year he was stellar. I think people want to just write off D-Wade because of his injuries the last year but the guy is still a great player. Yes he might turn the ball over a bit but I think the positives out weight that. He's already showed at a young age he's a winner and can carry a team to a title if you put some motivated help around him. I think writing him off and saying he just had a lucky run is a mistake.
BiiiiigChips is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-13-2008, 02:33 PM   #1783
tbach24
Carpal \'Tunnel
 
tbach24's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: @tbach2
Posts: 11,476
Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

If for the theoretical season DWade is healthy than it's a pretty solid pick. Just stick him with a dominant center and you'll be allllll set.
tbach24 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-13-2008, 02:37 PM   #1784
Seadood228
Carpal \'Tunnel
 
Seadood228's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2004
Location: Rossmoor, CA
Posts: 30,306
Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion Thread

Quote:
Originally Posted by BiiiiigChips View Post
He's already showed at a young age he's a winner and can carry a team to a title if you put some motivated help around him.
So if this is the case, hasn't he also proved that he can lead a team to a crappy record as well? I'm not saying the guy is horrible, but everybody seems so quick to write off this last season and attribute it to injuries, and then write off those injuries. I just think the guy has major holes in his game--holes that he has yet to fix.
Seadood228 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-13-2008, 02:47 PM   #1785
BiiiiigChips
Carpal \'Tunnel
 
BiiiiigChips's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: SOCAL
Posts: 7,465
Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion Thread

Quote:
Originally Posted by Seadood228 View Post
So if this is the case, hasn't he also proved that he can lead a team to a crappy record as well? I'm not saying the guy is horrible, but everybody seems so quick to write off this last season and attribute it to injuries, and then write off those injuries. I just think the guy has major holes in his game--holes that he has yet to fix.
Miami was a mess this past season. Shaq quit, DWade was hurt, Riley was disinterested and he had a supporting cast of NBDL players. The Heat were tragic this year. I wouldn't say he lead them to a bad record he just happenned to be the best player on a really bad team. Is his game perfect? Of course not but I would venture to say that a guy who has already proven he can lead his team to the title in just his 3rd year and can still have room for improvement in his game, is most likely a problem most GMs and coaches wouldn't mind having.
BiiiiigChips is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-13-2008, 02:57 PM   #1786
Seadood228
Carpal \'Tunnel
 
Seadood228's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2004
Location: Rossmoor, CA
Posts: 30,306
Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion Thread

Quote:
Originally Posted by BiiiiigChips View Post
Miami was a mess this past season. Shaq quit, DWade was hurt, Riley was disinterested and he had a supporting cast of NBDL players. The Heat were tragic this year. I wouldn't say he lead them to a bad record he just happenned to be the best player on a really bad team. Is his game perfect? Of course not but I would venture to say that a guy who has already proven he can lead his team to the title in just his 3rd year and can still have room for improvement in his game, is most likely a problem most GMs and coaches wouldn't mind having.
I agree that they were a mess, but not a 15 game winner mess. People act like it was Dwade and a bunch of down-syndrome kids out there. I don't attribute their poor play to Wade, but it's hard to ignore that he didn't perform as well when his supporting cast wasn't there, just like it's hard to ignore that he did perform stellar in that playoff series against Dallas. I just don't think you can ignore one and focus on the other.
Seadood228 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-13-2008, 03:00 PM   #1787
horizon
old hand
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 1,501
Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion Thread

Quote:
Originally Posted by tbach24 View Post
This is absolutely awful. Let me break it down for you.

"The within the graps (sic) of championship is the problem."
On this, let's look over what's happened with Nash in Phoenix (to discuss what happened with Dallas isn't as important, as those weren't his teams).
Year 1: Phoenix goes 62-20, blows by Memphis, beats Dallas, then loses to the Spurs. We'll give them a flier on this year as it was their first season together in the playoffs and they had to face the immortal Tim Duncan.
Year 2: Phoenix finishes 54-28, squeaks by the 2 LA teams in the first two rounds, then loses to Dallas in 6. One little thing, AMARE STOUDEMIRE DIDN'T EVEN PLAY THAT SEASON.
Year 3: 61-21, blow by the Lakeshow in round 1, then get cheated against the Spurs in round 2. IMO they would've won that series hands down had Amare and Diaw not been injured (2 home games vs. 1 makes them prohibitive favorites).
Year 4: WHO CARES THEY BOTCHED THE SYSTEM ARGGHHHHH. One of the thing that frusturates me beyond anything is the Shaq for Marion trade. They were the best team in the NBA in year 3, and had the same players returning in year 4. Stupid effing panic trade.

Anyways, the "no championship" argument is incredibly invalid. Not all great players win championships, that is a fact. Chris Paul just put together an incredible season. One of the best PG seasons in NBA history. Fantastic player, no doubt. Great on both ends of the floor. But is he better on the offensive end than Nash? No way. By all accounts, Nash is the most fun PG to play with in the league. Why? Not because he's some mythically nice guy or whatever, but because he gets you open looks, open dunks, etc.

Give CP3 a couple years (and a better outside shot) before we crown him as a better offensive player, regardless of who would win a 1v1 game or who has a higher PER.
Maybe I did not make myself very clear. It's not so much that he did not win a championship, is that he has played for incredibly staked team, and had a real shot at a championship just once.
If he was so good, he's teams would have been more competitive come playoff time.
I mean to give a silly example, imagine that James or even Bryant playing instead of Nash on the mavericks and Suns teams. Wouldn't they get riled for not winning a championship or at least not being competitive.
horizon is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-13-2008, 03:02 PM   #1788
Seadood228
Carpal \'Tunnel
 
Seadood228's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2004
Location: Rossmoor, CA
Posts: 30,306
Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

Quote:
Originally Posted by SHARK DOCTOR View Post
I love Nash and his solid offensive game - but I think Chris has got the edge on Nash...in the offensive game (though its tighter than most might think)...and on the defensive end (not even close)

Btw, Chris Paul was voted onto the All Defensive 2nd Team this year (as I predicted).
I think Paul is an average defender at that position, but for the most part the entire league is average. It's just not common to see a stellar defender at that size. There's too much open space to cover, and you're generally matched up against someone who can shoot from long distance. It's a tough position to defend, which is probably why there are very few great defenders at the point.
Seadood228 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-13-2008, 03:06 PM   #1789
Seadood228
Carpal \'Tunnel
 
Seadood228's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2004
Location: Rossmoor, CA
Posts: 30,306
Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion Thread

Quote:
Originally Posted by horizon View Post
Maybe I did not make myself very clear. It's not so much that he did not win a championship, is that he has played for incredibly staked team, and had a real shot at a championship just once.
If he was so good, he's teams would have been more competitive come playoff time.
I mean to give a silly example, imagine that James or even Bryant playing instead of Nash on the mavericks and Suns teams. Wouldn't they get riled for not winning a championship or at least not being competitive.
I don't know if I would consider those Suns teams "stacked." We're talking about a team that won 30 games before Nash got there. It's just as easy to say that he's the reason they are stacked. Not that I wholly believe either.
Seadood228 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-13-2008, 03:11 PM   #1790
capone0
Carpal \'Tunnel
 
capone0's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: Philly
Posts: 43,034
Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

Paul on 82games.com opp: 17.1. Defensive Win Shares 14.3.
Nash: 17.5. DWS: 4.5.
Rondo: 16.3. DWS: 14.4
Davis: 17.9 DWS: 8.8
Iverson: 14.1 (suprisingly good). DWS: 8.4.
Parker: 15.3. DWS: 10.0.
Calderon: 16.7 DWS: 5.6.
Williams: 15.5 DWS: 6.5

Example of bad: Bibby: 20.0 (3).

There are other methods and of course it's very tough to perfectly gauge defense.
capone0 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-13-2008, 03:15 PM   #1791
horizon
old hand
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 1,501
Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

Quote:
Originally Posted by Seadood228 View Post
I think Paul is an average defender at that position, but for the most part the entire league is average. It's just not common to see a stellar defender at that size. There's too much open space to cover, and you're generally matched up against someone who can shoot from long distance. It's a tough position to defend, which is probably why there are very few great defenders at the point.
And even if you're a great defender at the point, it does not make your team a good defensive team whereas a Tim Duncan alone ...
And that's why I 'm a little hating on Nash offensive game (not really hating but I thinks that he 's significantly worse than Paul). He's not that bad of a defender, especially compared to the other points.
It seems to me that people slightly overrate Nash's offensive game and then use the he sucks on D argument to balance it
horizon is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-13-2008, 03:15 PM   #1792
Steroid Boy
Carpal \'Tunnel
 
Steroid Boy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Backpacking Bananas
Posts: 42,156
Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

is there really an argument going on that nash is easier to build around than CP3
Steroid Boy is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-13-2008, 03:21 PM   #1793
horizon
old hand
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 1,501
Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

Quote:
Originally Posted by capone0 View Post
Paul on 82games.com opp: 17.1. Defensive Win Shares 14.3.
Nash: 17.5. DWS: 4.5.
Rondo: 16.3. DWS: 14.4
Davis: 17.9 DWS: 8.8
Iverson: 14.1 (suprisingly good). DWS: 8.4.
Parker: 15.3. DWS: 10.0.
Calderon: 16.7 DWS: 5.6.
Williams: 15.5 DWS: 6.5

Example of bad: Bibby: 20.0 (3).

There are other methods and of course it's very tough to perfectly gauge defense.
Rondo: KG
Parker uncan
Paul: Chandler
Nash: Amare/shag
Calderon:Bosh
bibby:???
horizon is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-13-2008, 03:22 PM   #1794
tbach24
Carpal \'Tunnel
 
tbach24's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: @tbach2
Posts: 11,476
Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

also, Iverson has camby.

two questions: 1. what is the 1st number?
2. good link to an explanation of defensive win shares?
tbach24 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-13-2008, 03:24 PM   #1795
Seadood228
Carpal \'Tunnel
 
Seadood228's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2004
Location: Rossmoor, CA
Posts: 30,306
Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

Sorry to be a nit, but Assani politely requested we refrain from undrafted players who might be picked shortly.
Seadood228 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-13-2008, 03:28 PM   #1796
sergsz
old hand
 
Join Date: Jan 2004
Posts: 1,330
Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion Thread

Quote:
Originally Posted by horizon View Post
Maybe I did not make myself very clear. It's not so much that he did not win a championship, is that he has played for incredibly staked team, and had a real shot at a championship just once.
If he was so good, he's teams would have been more competitive come playoff time.
I mean to give a silly example, imagine that James or even Bryant playing instead of Nash on the mavericks and Suns teams. Wouldn't they get riled for not winning a championship or at least not being competitive.
I don't think anyone is arguing that Nash is as good as Lebron or Kobe. There is a reason LBJ went 3, Kobe went 10, and Nash lasted til 27. But just because he is not in Lebron's and Kobe's class doesn't make him a bad pick and that point in the draft.
sergsz is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-13-2008, 03:28 PM   #1797
capone0
Carpal \'Tunnel
 
capone0's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: Philly
Posts: 43,034
Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

Quote:
Originally Posted by tbach24 View Post
also, Iverson has camby.

two questions: 1. what is the 1st number?
2. good link to an explanation of defensive win shares?
It's PER for the opponent of the PG. It's not a great rating, as I said earlier there aren't many great defensive ratings.
2- http://www.basketball-reference.com/about/ws.html
capone0 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-13-2008, 03:29 PM   #1798
horizon
old hand
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 1,501
Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion Thread

Quote:
Originally Posted by Seadood228 View Post
I don't know if I would consider those Suns teams "stacked." We're talking about a team that won 30 games before Nash got there. It's just as easy to say that he's the reason they are stacked. Not that I wholly believe either.
The Suns turnaround argument is ridiculous.
They won 44 with Marbury at the point, Rookie stoudemire and young Joe johnson and almost upset the Spurs.
THe 30 win was due to injuries and quitting cause of the sucky season.
Nash's team in his first year was amazing and I could not believed that any decent analyst was surprised by theirrecord.
He was the man in his second year though.
horizon is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-13-2008, 03:33 PM   #1799
Seadood228
Carpal \'Tunnel
 
Seadood228's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2004
Location: Rossmoor, CA
Posts: 30,306
Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion Thread

Quote:
Originally Posted by horizon View Post
The Suns turnaround argument is ridiculous.
They won 44 with Marbury at the point, Rookie stoudemire and young Joe johnson and almost upset the Spurs.
THe 30 win was due to injuries and quitting cause of the sucky season.
Nash's team in his first year was amazing and I could not believed that any decent analyst was surprised by theirrecord.
He was the man in his second year though.
I wasn't arguing about their turnaround. But since you mentioned it, that other guy was a pretty good PG at the time, and to go from 44 wins to 62 is pretty freaking impressive. My argument was that the Sun's weren't stacked before Nash got there, and that it's possible that the players around him got better because of him.
Seadood228 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-13-2008, 03:35 PM   #1800
fanmail
Carpal \'Tunnel
 
fanmail's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: Crown Town
Posts: 32,416
Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

Does anyone know this sammykid11? He has been on the clock for 12 hours. Man, I want to pick argh.
fanmail is offline   Reply With Quote

Reply
      

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off


Forum Jump


All times are GMT -4. The time now is 01:11 AM.


Powered by vBulletin®
Copyright ©2000 - 2021, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Copyright © 2008-2020, Two Plus Two Interactive