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Old 05-13-2008, 10:24 AM   #1751
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion Thread

Re: Pippen's decline. He played much better than his stats would indicate on Portland, and was by all accounts the leader of that team, which was one bad quarter from winning the NBA title. This despite what was very bad back problems.


Re: Wade

I think Wade is very instructive in terms of the risk of young players. Two years ago, people were debating "is Wade better than LeBron or Kobe". Now, he's an injury prone risk who will have trouble carrying a long peak due to his playing style.

Things can change very fast. That's why those older guys with the proven longevity IMO have a premium. Even the aforementioned Pippen who was outstanding through 32 and a high quality specialist for the next 5 years is a rarity. That will become more apparent as the draft goes on and perennial all stars become rare and we start looking at guys with a 4-5 year shelf life.
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Old 05-13-2008, 10:25 AM   #1752
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion Thread

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How about this years rookie class? Guess they are off limits?
Assani wrote somewhere that they have to have played an NBA game. That means no Oden, no incoming rookies.
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Old 05-13-2008, 10:26 AM   #1753
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion Thread

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Assani wrote somewhere that they have to have played an NBA game. That means no Oden, no incoming rookies.
Damn, I was going to sneak attack an Oden pick late....doh.
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Old 05-13-2008, 10:26 AM   #1754
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion Thread

I mean Rose/Beasley. Surely if they were game they would be picked in the first couple of rounds.
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Old 05-13-2008, 10:29 AM   #1755
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion Thread

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Assani wrote somewhere that they have to have played an NBA game. That means no Oden, no incoming rookies.
they will play a game before this draft ends.
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Old 05-13-2008, 10:31 AM   #1756
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion Thread

Nah, this will be done by late September is my guess. I mean, it's possible, but he said no, and besides, it's really kind of silly to put in rookies for this anyways.
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Old 05-13-2008, 10:32 AM   #1757
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion Thread

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they will play a game before this draft ends.
If that's the case Oden + available players should be available now. It's not like any would be picked this early though. But the rule should be either as of the start of the draft date or that they should be available.
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Old 05-13-2008, 12:04 PM   #1758
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion Thread

Its much easier to keep it at players who have played a game before the draft started.

We don't need HSP picking 8th grade phenoms from the bay area and talking about how when they are 24 they will be best player ever.
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Old 05-13-2008, 12:27 PM   #1759
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion Thread

I know its been said but I cant believe how far Pippen and Payton fell, Pippen especially. Wade and Mcgrady are a little bit of a reach imo and I think theyre bad picks. You could argue that you need their style of play for the team you want to build but I believe there are at least 2 guys ahead of each in their position that havent been picked yet.

Edit: Oh and for Nash, I can think of 1 guy, maybe more who while they are a significant (although not huge) drop off on offence, are better than Nash's nonexistence on defence and therefore make them better picks. I think Nash's lack of defence seriously hurts him in this packed league.
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Old 05-13-2008, 12:47 PM   #1760
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion Thread

4 picks were made since the time I left til the time I just woke up, thank god this draft is moving a tiny bit faster, keep it up
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Old 05-13-2008, 12:57 PM   #1761
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion Thread

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Edit: Oh and for Nash, I can think of 1 guy, maybe more who while they are a significant (although not huge) drop off on offence, are better than Nash's nonexistence on defence and therefore make them better picks. I think Nash's lack of defence seriously hurts him in this packed league.
The hate for Nash is ridiculous. I can think of one point guard EVER (Magic) who IMO is a better offensive player than Nash. Not only is he incredibly efficient and the focal point of an offense that put up points everywhere, but he orchestrated two different offensive systems (granted in Dallas it wasn't nearly as contingent upon him) and consistently put his teams within the grasp of championships.
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Old 05-13-2008, 01:00 PM   #1762
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion Thread

I also like the Nash pick. If the rest of the team/coach is built correctly around him then he has great value here.
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Old 05-13-2008, 01:15 PM   #1763
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion Thread

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The hate for Nash is ridiculous. I can think of one point guard EVER (Magic) who IMO is a better offensive player than Nash. Not only is he incredibly efficient and the focal point of an offense that put up points everywhere, but he orchestrated two different offensive systems (granted in Dallas it wasn't nearly as contingent upon him) and consistently put his teams within the grasp of championships.
I guess its just personal preference on the defense side then. I know hes amazing on offense (I would never debate that) but that big fat zero on defence doesnt bother you at all?
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Old 05-13-2008, 01:23 PM   #1764
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion Thread

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And despite me asking as nicely as possible, you continue to mock the rule. Cool.
I didn't mention anyone since you got all hard-on about it. Talk to HSP not me.
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Old 05-13-2008, 01:26 PM   #1765
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

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Cons

He does take too many dribbles on the offensive end which I hate.
Jumper could use some work.
Not to mention if the league ever decides to tighten up on traveling, he's ****ed.
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Old 05-13-2008, 01:33 PM   #1766
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

The game is on both sides of the ball. Nash is great offensively. There are just so many great offensive players that also play D that it's hard to pick someone with attrocious defensive skills. It's been also proven time and time again atleast in the NBA that you have to be pretty damn good in the half court O to win it all in the playoffs. Magic-Lakers I guess are the only team that ran the break really well (I guess I'm not a Lakers expert) but the Bulls, Spurs, late Lakers team, were all really good half court teams.
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Old 05-13-2008, 01:35 PM   #1767
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

I like how he left out the biggest con for Dwyane Wade in that he's missed over 60 games in the last 2 years. Also, he has a lot of sand in his vag.
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Old 05-13-2008, 01:36 PM   #1768
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

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The game is on both sides of the ball. Nash is great offensively. There are just so many great offensive players that also play D that it's hard to pick someone with attrocious defensive skills. It's been also proven time and time again atleast in the NBA that you have to be pretty damn good in the half court O to win it all in the playoffs. Magic-Lakers I guess are the only team that ran the break really well (I guess I'm not a Lakers expert) but the Bulls, Spurs, late Lakers team, were all really good half court teams.
What makes you think Nash doesn't run a great half court offense?
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Old 05-13-2008, 01:38 PM   #1769
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion Thread

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The hate for Nash is ridiculous. I can think of one point guard EVER (Magic) who IMO is a better offensive player than Nash. Not only is he incredibly efficient and the focal point of an offense that put up points everywhere, but he orchestrated two different offensive systems (granted in Dallas it wasn't nearly as contingent upon him) and consistently put his teams within the grasp of championships.
The within the graps of championship is the problem.
The team he has played for were beyond stacked and he never won a championship.
And it's not like he chocked or anything as a favorite. It's not like Barkley who had to face Jordan and Pippen. It's just that he was not good enough.
Either that or it's Dirk who is overrated.

And Chris Paul is a better offensive player.
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Old 05-13-2008, 01:39 PM   #1770
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

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What makes you think Nash doesn't run a great half court offense?
I guess he could, he's more suited for a faster pased one though.
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Old 05-13-2008, 01:40 PM   #1771
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion Thread

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And Chris Paul is a better offensive player.
With respect to what?

Both pass equally well.

Nash shoots better, CP3 is a better penetrator.
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Old 05-13-2008, 01:52 PM   #1772
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

I love Nash and his solid offensive game - but I think Chris has got the edge on Nash...in the offensive game (though its tighter than most might think)...and on the defensive end (not even close)

Btw, Chris Paul was voted onto the All Defensive 2nd Team this year (as I predicted).
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Old 05-13-2008, 01:53 PM   #1773
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

Paul is 23 and averaged this season more points than Nash never has.
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Old 05-13-2008, 02:10 PM   #1774
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

Nash shoots better, Paul shoots more.
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Old 05-13-2008, 02:12 PM   #1775
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion Thread

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The within the graps of championship is the problem.
The team he has played for were beyond stacked and he never won a championship.
And it's not like he chocked or anything as a favorite. It's not like Barkley who had to face Jordan and Pippen. It's just that he was not good enough.
Either that or it's Dirk who is overrated.

And Chris Paul is a better offensive player.
This is absolutely awful. Let me break it down for you.

"The within the graps (sic) of championship is the problem."
On this, let's look over what's happened with Nash in Phoenix (to discuss what happened with Dallas isn't as important, as those weren't his teams).
Year 1: Phoenix goes 62-20, blows by Memphis, beats Dallas, then loses to the Spurs. We'll give them a flier on this year as it was their first season together in the playoffs and they had to face the immortal Tim Duncan.
Year 2: Phoenix finishes 54-28, squeaks by the 2 LA teams in the first two rounds, then loses to Dallas in 6. One little thing, AMARE STOUDEMIRE DIDN'T EVEN PLAY THAT SEASON.
Year 3: 61-21, blow by the Lakeshow in round 1, then get cheated against the Spurs in round 2. IMO they would've won that series hands down had Amare and Diaw not been injured (2 home games vs. 1 makes them prohibitive favorites).
Year 4: WHO CARES THEY BOTCHED THE SYSTEM ARGGHHHHH. One of the thing that frusturates me beyond anything is the Shaq for Marion trade. They were the best team in the NBA in year 3, and had the same players returning in year 4. Stupid effing panic trade.

Anyways, the "no championship" argument is incredibly invalid. Not all great players win championships, that is a fact. Chris Paul just put together an incredible season. One of the best PG seasons in NBA history. Fantastic player, no doubt. Great on both ends of the floor. But is he better on the offensive end than Nash? No way. By all accounts, Nash is the most fun PG to play with in the league. Why? Not because he's some mythically nice guy or whatever, but because he gets you open looks, open dunks, etc.

Give CP3 a couple years (and a better outside shot) before we crown him as a better offensive player, regardless of who would win a 1v1 game or who has a higher PER.
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