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Old 05-13-2008, 12:39 AM   #1701
Assani Fisher
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion Thread

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Originally Posted by Dr. Zoidberg View Post
I was more impressed with what Dominique did being the #1 his whole career than what Pippen did playing Robin to MJ.
Take a look at 93-94 when Jordan was retired.

22.0 points
8.7 rebounds
5.6 assists
2.9 steals
0.8 blocks
49.1% FG
51.5% eFG
54.4% TS
#4 in the league in PER
All Defensive 1st Team
All NBA 1st Team
All Star Game MVP
3rd in MVP voting

Oh and btw, he carried a team composed of BJ Armstrong, Horace Grant, Toni Kukoc, Steve Kerr, Pete Myers, and Bill Wennington to 55 wins that year!

And on top of all of that, consider that the Bulls were 25th out of 27 teams in pace that year which means that Pippen's numbers are deflated.


The argument that Pippen couldn't be the best player on a team is complete and total BS, as this was by far his best year.
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Old 05-13-2008, 12:43 AM   #1702
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion Thread

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Originally Posted by flyingmoose View Post
Yeah, if we actually wind up doing a lot of seasons in this league then Payton will totally own me later on. Personally I don't care about season 5 of the league much less season 10.
Yes, you're building a franchise so you most definitely care about the future of the team as well as the present. From the rules:

https://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/sh....php?p=3996634

Quote:
Basically we're going to be drafting basketball franchises. It will be a serpintine(sp?) draft, and order will be randomly decided somehow. The goal, of course, is to build the best possible basketball team both for the now and the future.
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Old 05-13-2008, 12:44 AM   #1703
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion Thread

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Originally Posted by Assani Fisher View Post
Oh and btw, he carried a team composed of BJ Armstrong, Horace Grant, Toni Kukoc, Steve Kerr, Pete Myers, and Bill Wennington to 55 wins that year!
my sleepers
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Old 05-13-2008, 12:45 AM   #1704
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion Thread

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Originally Posted by HighStakesPro View Post
Those comments were made after pick #21 fwiw.
And yet people continue to think that naming players doesn't affect drafters, lol.
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Old 05-13-2008, 12:46 AM   #1705
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion Thread

Meh, Pippen sat for almost 10 picks after people started talking about him, and he could've been taken several picks *before* they started talking about him.
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Old 05-13-2008, 12:48 AM   #1706
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion Thread

Payton had been talked about since Isiah for cryin' out loud.

Assani you haven't addressed my concerns about you influencing my #5 pick
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Old 05-13-2008, 12:48 AM   #1707
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion Thread

- I had Pip right behind KG, in a virtual tie with Barkley/Malone. It's just a sexy pick because he was so versatile. You basically kill 3 needs (Guard to dribble up the court and run the break, perimeter defender, scorer) with one pick. Had Epi been willing to trade for KG, I would have done it.. and that was about 4 picks ago.

I was always disappointed in the way Pip's career ended though, but oh well he was a steal at that point..

- Props to the last few picks for getting them up so fast.

- Payton vs. Kidd vs. Thomas. Depending on the team around him, I think you can make a case for:

Kidd>Payton>Thomas

(lots of great wing shooters and offensive weapons who need touches in specific spots, or a SG who's short, team that needs help with the boards)

Payton>Thomas>Kidd

(A PG on a defensive minded team who can score and distribute to the wide open player)




If that makes sense.

Last edited by Seadood228; 05-13-2008 at 12:59 AM. Reason: more content
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Old 05-13-2008, 12:51 AM   #1708
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion Thread

Wat. I don't get it. People were universally disagreeing that T-Mac would not be a good pick, and somehow it influences Dudd to take him 7 spots later? Keep in mind those comments were two days ago.

I have a hard time thinking Dudd read "T-Mac should be a 2nd or 3rd rounder" and thinking, hmm... time to pick T-Mac!

No, more likely he fell in love with his high peak and felt he needed a swing man.
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Old 05-13-2008, 12:52 AM   #1709
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion Thread

Quote:
Originally Posted by Assani Fisher View Post
Take a look at 93-94 when Jordan was retired.

22.0 points
8.7 rebounds
5.6 assists
2.9 steals
0.8 blocks
49.1% FG
51.5% eFG
54.4% TS
#4 in the league in PER
All Defensive 1st Team
All NBA 1st Team
All Star Game MVP
3rd in MVP voting

Oh and btw, he carried a team composed of BJ Armstrong, Horace Grant, Toni Kukoc, Steve Kerr, Pete Myers, and Bill Wennington to 55 wins that year!

And on top of all of that, consider that the Bulls were 25th out of 27 teams in pace that year which means that Pippen's numbers are deflated.


The argument that Pippen couldn't be the best player on a team is complete and total BS, as this was by far his best year.
This might be my favorite Assani post. Well done.
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Old 05-13-2008, 12:58 AM   #1710
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion Thread

The whole Nash defense argument is weak sauce imo. After the two already taken, there's a cavernous drop-off from that point amongst the NBA's elite. A better argument would have been his late peak.
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Old 05-13-2008, 01:09 AM   #1711
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion Thread

IMO the nash and t-mac picks were two of the best value in the draft. Nash because I assume that in his Dallas years he could've done with what he did in Phoenix if given the chance, and T-mac simply because the guy can flatout play, and his best year is one of the best ever. Injury concerns for both (T-mac especially). I pick in a few!!!
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Old 05-13-2008, 01:10 AM   #1712
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion Thread

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Originally Posted by kidcolin View Post
Payton had been talked about since Isiah for cryin' out loud.

Assani you haven't addressed my concerns about you influencing my #5 pick
Whenever I try to enforce this rule you guys just mock me, tell me how I'm wrong, or try to search for some vague way where I broke the rule. Seriously, I would think that since I put this together and got it going that you could at least just respect the rules, no? I understand that I'm gonna take a little teasing and have some jokes made here and there, but I've been asking this for days now and you guys just keep ignoring me.

Just stop mentioning players please. I don't care to debate it or defend anything I've done. If I messed up and mentioned a player then I made a mistake and I need to stop it too. Now please stop it.
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Old 05-13-2008, 01:16 AM   #1713
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion Thread

In fairness to Assani, in about 6-7 picks we'll be in territory where literally 15 guys could be taken at any given moment. I agree it hasn't been a big deal yet since we're still talking about a pretty short list of eligible guys, but the hall of famers and statistical freaks are rapidly going off the board.

Probably as good a time as any to stop naming, especially since there's so much to talk about, including the horrible picks like TMac (injuries) Nash (defense is so important in this league IMO), Amare (see nash and TMac combined), Kidd>Payton (discussed already in this thread), Wilkins>Pippen (easiest to get commodity vs. toughest to get) etc.
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Old 05-13-2008, 01:26 AM   #1714
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion Thread

Quote:
Originally Posted by Assani Fisher View Post
Take a look at 93-94 when Jordan was retired.

22.0 points
8.7 rebounds
5.6 assists
2.9 steals
0.8 blocks
49.1% FG
51.5% eFG
54.4% TS
#4 in the league in PER
All Defensive 1st Team
All NBA 1st Team
All Star Game MVP
3rd in MVP voting

Oh and btw, he carried a team composed of BJ Armstrong, Horace Grant, Toni Kukoc, Steve Kerr, Pete Myers, and Bill Wennington to 55 wins that year!

And on top of all of that, consider that the Bulls were 25th out of 27 teams in pace that year which means that Pippen's numbers are deflated.


The argument that Pippen couldn't be the best player on a team is complete and total BS, as this was by far his best year.
I like the pick, but what about the argument that he was pretty bad without Phil Jackson? I guess you could bring up injuries as an excuse, but then we'd have even more to knock him down for. Don't you think the seasons from age 32-38 are just as conclusive as the one after Jordan retired? I'm not saying I'm sold, just opening up a can of worms.
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Old 05-13-2008, 01:38 AM   #1715
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion Thread

Also, I think an argument can be made that Kidd is easier to build around than Payton.
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Old 05-13-2008, 01:38 AM   #1716
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion Thread

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Originally Posted by Seadood228 View Post
I like the pick, but what about the argument that he was pretty bad without Phil Jackson? I guess you could bring up injuries as an excuse, but then we'd have even more to knock him down for. Don't you think the seasons from age 32-38 are just as conclusive as the one after Jordan retired? I'm not saying I'm sold, just opening up a can of worms.
Likelihood of Pippen's decline being due to age >>>>>> likelihood of his decline being due to not having enough zen on the sidelines
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Old 05-13-2008, 01:42 AM   #1717
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion Thread

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Originally Posted by ClarkNasty View Post

Probably as good a time as any to stop naming, especially since there's so much to talk about, including the horrible picks like TMac (injuries) Nash (defense is so important in this league IMO), Amare (see nash and TMac combined), Kidd>Payton (discussed already in this thread), Wilkins>Pippen (easiest to get commodity vs. toughest to get) etc.

I don't get the hate on the Nash pick - the just aren't a ton of guys left who are awesome on both offense and defense. Yeah, his D stinks, but he is a near-perfect offensive player, being one of the best passers in the game and an efficient scorer himself. The one strong argument against Nash could be his late peak, but it seems that most people here believe he would perform at near-peak levels right from the beginning for the purposes of this league if he is put in the right system. I think he was a very solid pick at this point in the draft.
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Old 05-13-2008, 01:44 AM   #1718
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion Thread

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Originally Posted by Assani Fisher View Post
Barkley was better in EVERY ASPECT offensively. It wasn't close. And FG%, eFG%, and TS% don't lie. You get the ball, you try to score. These stats tell us how successful they were. Theres nothing "watching them play" can do that will erase those numbers and make them less significant.
You know what else "don't lie"?

http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=kkhWeEGyIdI
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Old 05-13-2008, 01:44 AM   #1719
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion Thread

Assani,
how many seasons are we playing?
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Old 05-13-2008, 01:44 AM   #1720
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion Thread

wow linking to TWO potential players you're outta here
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Old 05-13-2008, 01:45 AM   #1721
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion Thread

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Likelihood of Pippen's decline being due to age >>>>>> likelihood of his decline being due to not having enough zen on the sidelines
How so? He was 32. If he starts a rapid decline at 32, that's pretty early.
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Old 05-13-2008, 01:48 AM   #1722
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion Thread

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How so? He was 32. If he starts a rapid decline at 32, that's pretty early.
Not really.
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Old 05-13-2008, 01:51 AM   #1723
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion Thread

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Originally Posted by sergsz View Post
I don't get the hate on the Nash pick - the just aren't a ton of guys left who are awesome on both offense and defense. Yeah, his D stinks, but he is a near-perfect offensive player, being one of the best passers in the game and an efficient scorer himself. The one strong argument against Nash could be his late peak, but it seems that most people here believe he would perform at near-peak levels right from the beginning for the purposes of this league if he is put in the right system. I think he was a very solid pick at this point in the draft.
Nash is not great tu build around.
He was great as a Suns, but honestly the Maveric's results are pretty bad given how stacked the team was.
If you built around Nash, you have to go according to the Suns' model or your lose a ton of value on your pick.
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Old 05-13-2008, 01:54 AM   #1724
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion Thread

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Originally Posted by Seadood228 View Post
How so? He was 32. If he starts a rapid decline at 32, that's pretty early.
32 is not an unusual age for players to start declining... Looking at his PER numers, I do see your point a little bit, it's in a very gradual decline until he leaves Chicago, then falls off suddenly by 4 points, then resumes the gradual decline. Still, I don't think that's such a strange aging pattern. A lot of other star players fell off rather quickly (can't name names because I don't want to make Assani mad).
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Old 05-13-2008, 02:10 AM   #1725
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion Thread

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wow linking to TWO potential players you're outta here
four actually, Redd took the free throws and you could see the back of Magloire's jersey. I hope nobody picks any of those players it would be a travesty.
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