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Old 09-20-2008, 09:41 AM   #15751
Seadood228
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion - Let's Get'er Done

I think Stockton is underrated because many casual fans put him below players who he clearly smokes. The folks here are quite a bit more saavy than the casual fan, though.
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Old 09-20-2008, 09:56 AM   #15752
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion - Let's Get'er Done

I had a brush with Deke once in Vegas. It was at the Capitol Grille, was eating when I heard the unmistakeable laugh. Thought, is that dikembe? Turned around and sure enough, there he was, being seated at the table next to mine. It never ceases to amaze me how tall NBA players are in person. He was with a couple of smokin hot women and another NBA player who I cant recall. All I could think of was "who wants to sex mutombo?" My family thought I was nuts.

D
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Old 09-20-2008, 09:56 AM   #15753
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion - Let's Get'er Done

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Originally Posted by NopairParker View Post
How is stockton underated, isnt he known as a top 5 PG in basketball history, I dont know how that can mean being underated.
uh cause he is easily a top 3 PG and possibly top 2 of all time? The only 2 u can argue ahead of him are Johnson and Oscar.

That's like being like, I think Wilt and Shaq are better than Jordan, but Jordan is #3. And someone tells me i'm dumb and underrating Jordan. But how can Jordan be underrated if I listed him at #3 all time!
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Old 09-20-2008, 10:47 AM   #15754
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion - Let's Get'er Done

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do you have a link or is this just homer hyperbole?

As for the argument, I have no clue why Stockton is so underrated. Maybe its just the "slow white guy" perception that so many people have. Hes easily better than Zeke though.
look up top seasonal PDs... that bulls team was the best w/ +13, that jazz team was 5th w/ +11.8 or something.
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Old 09-20-2008, 01:23 PM   #15755
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion - Let's Get'er Done

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How is stockton underated, isnt he known as a top 5 PG in basketball history, I dont know how that can mean being underated.

As for this argument, I agree with all the points you guys have made about stockton being way more efficient. I will even concede that he is better than Isiah, because I just cannot overlook the longevity factor.

If I was to take each PG as my number 1 pick to start a brand new team and I was to have them for only 5 of their peak years I would take Isiah.


Isiah knew what it took to win games, him taking a fade away driving jumper was better than lambier taking a 3, or whatever or whoever was on his team during the championships. Maybe stockton should have taken more shots, could his high efficiency possibly hurt the team. Have you conisdered that point.

Looking at johnnies stats, the trend seems to be the more threes he shot in the year the better his percentage got. This could also be attributed to sloan wanting to run the half court offense so badly he wouldnt allow stockton to pull on those fast break threes to often. I, however could not imagine any coach let alone sloan telling a shooter a calibur of stockton to not take an open 3 in the fast break with malone running the wing in position for a rebound.

After looking over stats however I do concede stockton is better than Isiah.

If they were to play 1 on 1 isiah beats stockton 11 to 4.
Hes underrated because hes easily the 2nd best PG in this draft, yet he went behind Paul and you're arguing Zeke was better in his prime.

And the "he knew what it take to win games" argument is silly.
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Old 09-20-2008, 06:07 PM   #15756
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion - Let's Get'er Done

matt geiger. geiger was serviceable for a number of years averaging 14.9 and 9.3 per 36. now i can run a 4 man rotation with big men which is think is important, esp since stat is a foulbox and bogut and hill are as well to a lesser extent.

my team:
c bogut
pfstat
sf tayshaun prince
pg mark price
sg ron harper

bench
big dog
tyrone hill
darell griffith
george mcloud
matt geiger
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Old 09-20-2008, 06:10 PM   #15757
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion - Let's Get'er Done


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Old 09-20-2008, 06:30 PM   #15758
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion - Let's Get'er Done

I can tell you, as someone who overrated Isiah before discovering advanced statistics, why I overrated him.

It's easy to understand, really. His individual performance in playoff games was the stuff of legends. Going off for 24/11 shooting 50% and 40% from the 3 when he was 23; his 26/12 playoff performance when he was 24. Beyond those statistical feats, Isiah almost single-handedly closed out the Lakers in game 6 of the finals in 1988, often he looked like the best player on the floor in that series.

It really isn't a question that Stockton was better than Isiah but I still think Isiah is one of the most underrated players on this forum, even after being somewhat enlightened by advanced stats.
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Old 09-20-2008, 07:29 PM   #15759
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion - Let's Get'er Done

im taking Charlie Villanueva





PG- Vern Fleming
PG- Jason Terry
SG-Michael Jordan
SG- Vinnie Johnson
SF- Josh Smith
SF- Charlie Villanueva
PF- Juwan Howard
PF- Joe Smith
C- Nazr Mohammed
C- Marcus Camby
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Old 09-20-2008, 08:20 PM   #15760
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion - Let's Get'er Done

were now gone through the draft e/c 10 or so picks have been skipped.
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Old 09-21-2008, 12:15 PM   #15761
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion - Let's Get'er Done

http://www.basketball-reference.com/...1&p2=thomais01

I know it doesn't mean much, but Stockton went head to head against Isiah 15 times. Stockton's Jazz had the advantage 8-7 over Isiah's Pistons.
Stockton, in 33.7 mpg, had 14.4 ppg on 57 TS%. He also had 12.2 apg and only 2.3 topg.
Thomas, 32.3 mpg, had 21.1 ppg on 59 TS%. He also had 6.9 apg and 3.5 topg.

Seems like Stockton owned this match up.
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Old 09-21-2008, 12:41 PM   #15762
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion - Let's Get'er Done

Hmm, so what do we do, should we PM each guy who was passed over and give them a couple of days to get their **** together, and then just start tossing out names for each team to finish up?
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Old 09-21-2008, 06:18 PM   #15763
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion - Let's Get'er Done

sorry yo I was on vacation and didn't feel like logging into 2p2. I knew I'd get skipped but didn't care. I'll post it tonight. I'm debating between an actual useful player or a really fun guy to have on my team that I don't need. It's not like it matters cuz my team pwns.
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Old 09-22-2008, 01:22 AM   #15764
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion - Let's Get'er Done

Dino Radja.
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Old 09-22-2008, 02:47 AM   #15765
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion - Let's Get'er Done

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Originally Posted by Victor View Post
matt geiger.
Christ.
When I told Matt about this draft he wanted to know when he was picked. I laughed at him, and told him he would be lucky to get picked at all.
We bet.
I lose, thanks alot buddy. LOL.
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Old 09-22-2008, 01:24 PM   #15766
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion - Let's Get'er Done

Looks like we're just waiting on FaDi, Sammykid, GKA, Nich, Alex, and BigChips, at least going by the spreadsheet. I sent out PMs to those guys to let them know that they can pick at any time, give them until like Wednesday before we just fill out their teams and move onto debating who has the best teams?
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Old 09-22-2008, 02:19 PM   #15767
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion - Let's Get'er Done

Sounds good. Next step is a thread where people post their final team writeup/analysis/hype. Then all 40 owners force rank each franchise 1-39 (excluding self) based on which franchise they'd rather own for the next 10 years (people can weigh now vs. later themselves).

Top 16 point getters then get seeded in a single elimination bracket with head-to-head matchups and voting for each "game" until we declare Michael Jordan the best one-man team since 1980.
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Old 09-22-2008, 02:45 PM   #15768
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion - Let's Get'er Done

i always thought zeke better than stockton, and was pretty sure about it. i now know that the numbers and the smart fans think and know otherwise. still just from watching them play...i will admit i saw detroit play a lot more growing up than utah.
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Old 09-22-2008, 03:31 PM   #15769
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion - Let's Get'er Done

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i always thought zeke better than stockton, and was pretty sure about it. i now know that the numbers and the smart fans think and know otherwise. still just from watching them play...i will admit i saw detroit play a lot more growing up than utah.
Zeke scored more, Stockton did not score as much. Stockton is Nash-esque e/c he played really good D. Like Nash, Stockton probally never took enough shots for how good of a shooter they are.
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Old 09-22-2008, 05:05 PM   #15770
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion - Let's Get'er Done

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Originally Posted by RUFFNECK View Post
Christ.
When I told Matt about this draft he wanted to know when he was picked. I laughed at him, and told him he would be lucky to get picked at all.
We bet.
I lose, thanks alot buddy. LOL.

woah, u know matt geiger? can u get him to post here?
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Old 09-22-2008, 05:42 PM   #15771
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion - Let's Get'er Done

isn't he the one with the heli-pad?
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Old 09-23-2008, 12:33 AM   #15772
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion - Let's Get'er Done

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Originally Posted by ClarkNasty View Post
Sounds good. Next step is a thread where people post their final team writeup/analysis/hype. Then all 40 owners force rank each franchise 1-39 (excluding self) based on which franchise they'd rather own for the next 10 years (people can weigh now vs. later themselves).

Top 16 point getters then get seeded in a single elimination bracket with head-to-head matchups and voting for each "game" until we declare Michael Jordan the best one-man team since 1980.
How about we say the next 12 years?
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Old 09-23-2008, 12:44 AM   #15773
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion - Let's Get'er Done

I remember 1984 US olympic team vs NBA in tune ups. We got our first look at Jordan, he was awesome ldo doing the jordan thing for really the first time. They had Ewing, Mullin, Perkins, but they had Steve Alford at the point. He was Knights boy and won the spot over some dude named Stockton who by all accounts was a player. Barkley was said to be unstoppable in tryouts but he and Knight would get into cussing matches and that was it for him, lol.

But yeah they played NBA team with Isaiah, Alvin Robertson, Kiki, Otis Birdsong, oh yeah Vern Flemming. My 3 memories 1. Jordan got a steal and well this was before the foul line dunk but he left from an angle and did something with the ball it was sick. 2. Perkins got a follow up dunk and let out a yell it was bad ass (this was young perkins not sir smooth or whatever they called him when he was all stoned and hanging out shooting treys) 3. okay Isaiah goes serious espn streetball on Alford, it was the sickest dribbling i ever saw up to that point in time, you know like the professor or hot sauce shi.t, i know that white boy knew right then and there all american means nothing he has nothing and he aint gonna make it.
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Old 09-23-2008, 01:07 AM   #15774
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion - Let's Get'er Done

I've played with Geiger before. He used to show up in the offseason at the courts that I would play at when I was 16. Crazy blocks, obv, but WTF dude, you gotta dominate weekend warriors and teenagers for fun? Go play with your ostriches and other assorted wildlife.

D
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Old 09-23-2008, 04:24 AM   #15775
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion - Let's Get'er Done

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How about we say the next 12 years?
I agree, at least 12. I drafted my team for durability and longevity.
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