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Old 09-18-2008, 11:56 PM   #15726
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion - Let's Get'er Done

Ran into Manute Bol on Monday night. Dude weighs like 80 pounds. His whole posse is like a bunch of 6'8" mini-me's.
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Old 09-19-2008, 02:06 AM   #15727
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion - Let's Get'er Done

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Ran into Manute Bol on Monday night. Dude weighs like 80 pounds. His whole posse is like a bunch of 6'8" mini-me's.
Thats all u have to say about that? You act like you run into ex-NBA players all the time. Im not asking for a whole trip report or an omg thread about this - but...errr....what happened? Lemme guess - you bumped into him at the 7-11 while he was buying some protein bars? am I close?
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Old 09-19-2008, 02:10 AM   #15728
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion - Let's Get'er Done

Rodney Stuckey and Amir Johnson in back to back picks! How does that happen?

Collusion?
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Old 09-19-2008, 08:29 AM   #15729
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion - Let's Get'er Done

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Thats all u have to say about that? You act like you run into ex-NBA players all the time. Im not asking for a whole trip report or an omg thread about this - but...errr....what happened? Lemme guess - you bumped into him at the 7-11 while he was buying some protein bars? am I close?
Yea, we need some details here
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Old 09-19-2008, 11:09 AM   #15730
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion - Let's Get'er Done

I pick Joel Przybilla to complete my team. He has very good career per 36 numbers of 10.7 rebounds, 3.0 blocks, 7.1 boards and can help solidify my interior defense. He will only be playing roughly 15 mpg but will do what I want which is block shots and rebound.

Final team:

Starters:

PG: Chauncey Billups
SG: Raja Bell
SF: Luol Deng
PF: Kevin McHale
C: Kendrick Perkins

Bench:

SG: Kevin Martin
SF/PF: Al Harrington
PF/C: Andray Blatche
PG: Daniel Gibson
C: Joel Przybilla
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Old 09-19-2008, 11:17 AM   #15731
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion - Let's Get'er Done

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Yea, we need some details here
Nothing that exciting. Was at the Argosy casino in Kansas City and saw this 80 pound 7'6" dude walking around with slightly graying hair. Was like, "is that Bol?" Friend says yes, casino dealer there confirms, we move along.
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Old 09-19-2008, 02:05 PM   #15732
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion - Let's Get'er Done

Ok final write up of my team:

I don't think i'll be anything special in the first 2-3 years of this league. My team will be competitive but def not championship caliber so I won't go into much detail about that.

However once year 4 hits, I think my team has a good 3-4 year window where they can win a championship.

My team can do a ton of things really well and I can put a lot of lineups to match up well vs almost any team in the league.

If a team has 2 bigmen, I have Perkins/McHale combo with Blatchay/Pryzbilla off the bench who can do a good job. If a team has 1 bigman and their PF is strictly a perimitier player, I can use Deng or Harrington at PF and matchup well that way. If a team has a PF that can go both inside and outside, McHale can do a good job on that as well.

My team has a bunch of shooters/slashers. Infact I have 5 very good/great 3pt shooters in Billiups, Bell, Martin, Gibson, Harrington and 3 very good/great slashers in Deng, Martin, Billups. Harrington/Gibson can also slash but I wouldn't call them very good at it. I do only have 1 real post presence in McHale, but he is one of the best post presences of all time.

My team can run or play the half court both very effectively. Billups/Martin/Bell/Deng/Gibson/Harrington can all thrive in a fast break system and my floor spacing/offensive punch in the half court is very good as well.

My team has great foul shooting as well, which will help throughout the game and especially at the end of close games. Billups/Martin/Gibson/Bell/McHale all shoot above 78 percent lifetime from the line, including Billups/Martin who are great ft shooters and also get to the line a good amount (especially Martin.) Deng is also good at 76.3 percent.

My defense is also top notch. Billups/Bell/Deng/McHale/Perkins/Pryzbilla are all very good/great defenders. When Kevin Martin comes in the game, he will be assigned to the worst SG/SF and possibly even PG so that he won't be exposed against most teams. We can also send double teams since my players can rotate very well and are almost all very mobile for their size and most are great help defenders.

My two weaknesses are Passing and Rebounding. Passing especially is my main weakness, as I only have one very good/great passer in Billups. The rest of my team are below average passers, but it's not like a lot of them are terrible. Even though they are thought of as bad passers, none of them have high turnover rates, so it's not like they can be expoited very easily since Billups will also be running most of my offense and getting the right people the ball off passes/penetration/cuts/post ups etc like he does with Detriot except that this time he will have a lot better weapons to work with.

Rebounding is a slight weakness as well, but I was able to grab elite rebounders at the SF position in Deng/Harrington. My PF/C's can still rebound, just not at an elite level.

This draft was fun and I suggest us doing a draft that was talked about earlier where you can pick a player past 1980 and pick one year of his career and basacally have it be a 1 year league. I think that would be much easier to determine a championship winner in because there wouldn't be so much speculation about injuries/production 3-5+ years down the road for the young guys.
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Old 09-19-2008, 02:14 PM   #15733
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion - Let's Get'er Done

Ok final write up of my team:

I don't think i'll be anything special in the first 2-3 years of this league. My team will be competitive but def not championship caliber so I won't go into much detail about that.

However once year 4 hits, I think my team has a good 3-4 year window where they can win a championship(s).

My team can do a ton of things really well and I can put a lot of lineups to match up well vs almost any team in the league.

My team has a bunch of shooters/slashers. Infact I have 5 very good/great 3pt shooters in Billiups, Bell, Martin, Gibson, Harrington and 3 very good/great slashers in Deng, Martin, Billups. Harrington/Gibson can also slash but I wouldn't call them very good at it. I do only have 1 real post presence in McHale, but he is one of the best post presences of all time.

My team can run or play the half court both very effectively. Billups/Martin/Bell/Deng/Gibson/Harrington can all thrive in a fast break system and my floor spacing/offensive punch in the half court is very good as well.

My team has great foul shooting as well, which will help throughout the game and especially at the end of close games. Billups/Martin/Gibson/Bell/McHale all shoot above 78 percent lifetime from the line, including Billups/Martin who are great ft shooters and also get to the line a good amount (especially Martin.) Deng is also good at 76.3 percent.

My defense is also top notch. Billups/Bell/Deng/McHale/Perkins/Pryzbilla are all very good/great defenders. When Kevin Martin comes in the game, he will be assigned to the worst SG/SF and possibly even PG so that he won't be exposed against most teams. We can also send double teams since my players can rotate very well, are almost all very mobile for their size, and are almost all very good/great help defenders.

If a team has 2 inside bigmen, I have Perkins/McHale combo with Blatchay/Pryzbilla off the bench who can do a good job. If a team has 1 bigman and their PF is a perimitier player, I can use Deng or Harrington at PF and matchup well that way. If a team has a PF that can play both inside/outside, McHale can do a good job on him as well.

If a team has 2 good/great offensive SG/SF's then I can play Raja Bell/Deng on them. If a team has a great PG, Billups (or possibly even Raja Bell) will be on him as well.

My two weaknesses are Passing and Rebounding. Passing especially is my main weakness, as I only have one very good/great passer in Billups. The rest of my team are below average passers, but it's not like a lot of them are terrible. Even though they are thought of as bad passers, none of them have high turnover rates, so it's not like they can be expoited very easily since Billups will also be running most of my offense and getting the right people the ball off passes/penetration/cuts/post ups etc like he does with Detriot except that this time he will have a lot better weapons to work with.

Rebounding is a slight weakness as well, but I did make sure to grab elite rebounders at the SF position in Deng/Harrington. My PF/C's can still rebound just not at an elite level.

This draft was fun and I suggest us doing a draft that was talked about earlier where you can pick a player past 1980 and pick one year of his career and basacally have it be a 1 year league. I think that would be much easier to determine a championship winner in because there wouldn't be so much speculation about injuries/production 3-5+ years down the road for the young guys.

Last edited by EPiPeN11; 09-19-2008 at 02:23 PM.
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Old 09-19-2008, 04:27 PM   #15734
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion - Let's Get'er Done

arg jus noticed I made a double post mods can u pls delete the first one
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Old 09-19-2008, 05:52 PM   #15735
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion - Let's Get'er Done

"Harrington" and "elite" were mentioned in the same sentence
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Old 09-19-2008, 07:21 PM   #15736
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion - Let's Get'er Done

Did my Andruw Bynum pick jump from terrible, to just bad after the new release of centers rankings ?
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Old 09-19-2008, 07:54 PM   #15737
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion - Let's Get'er Done

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Did my Andruw Bynum pick jump from terrible, to just bad after the new release of centers rankings ?
You can get a break because of the rankings of pundits if people admit my Isiah pick was brilliant because Sports Illustrated and ESPN had him above Stockton.

Last edited by flyingmoose; 09-19-2008 at 08:08 PM.
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Old 09-19-2008, 09:41 PM   #15738
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion - Let's Get'er Done

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You can get a break because of the rankings of pundits if people admit my Isiah pick was brilliant because Sports Illustrated and ESPN had him above Stockton.
Unfortunately with the concept of this draft, you miss 3 of isiahs top peak years.

Isiah was definately a better ball player, but the only thing he stockton gets is super longevity.

Isiah also won 2 titles while stockton kept failing even though he had great teams several times.

Isiah beat jordans bulls, stockton lost.

Isaih over stock.
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Old 09-19-2008, 09:49 PM   #15739
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion - Let's Get'er Done

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Unfortunately with the concept of this draft, you miss 3 of isiahs top peak years.

Isiah was definately a better ball player, but the only thing he stockton gets is super longevity.

Isiah also won 2 titles while stockton kept failing even though he had great teams several times.

Isiah beat jordans bulls, stockton lost.

Isaih over stock.
You really sure about this:

Stockton Career PER 21.8, Career 61% TS%, DRAT 104, ORTG 121, AST% 50%. Career averages 13.1 in 31.8 MPG/105 apg, 2.2 spg, 2.7 rpg
Win Shares: 205.3 (141 O, 64 D)
Isiah Career PER 18.1, TS% 51.5%, DRAT 107, ORTG 106, AST% 37.4
Career Averages 19.2 ppg/9.3apg/1.9spg/3.6 rpg in 36 mpg
Win Shares: 80.3 (41.2/39)

Yeah right Isiah over Stockton, you can't be serious. Let me guess Ron Harper over Stockton too b/c he was on title teams. Those Utah teams were good but played in an era with Jordan in full swing.
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Old 09-19-2008, 11:01 PM   #15740
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion - Let's Get'er Done

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You really sure about this:

Stockton Career PER 21.8, Career 61% TS%, DRAT 104, ORTG 121, AST% 50%. Career averages 13.1 in 31.8 MPG/105 apg, 2.2 spg, 2.7 rpg
Win Shares: 205.3 (141 O, 64 D)
Isiah Career PER 18.1, TS% 51.5%, DRAT 107, ORTG 106, AST% 37.4
Career Averages 19.2 ppg/9.3apg/1.9spg/3.6 rpg in 36 mpg
Win Shares: 80.3 (41.2/39)

Yeah right Isiah over Stockton, you can't be serious. Let me guess Ron Harper over Stockton too b/c he was on title teams. Those Utah teams were good but played in an era with Jordan in full swing.
Im not really sure about it, but I would say that stockton was more of a product of the system. Whereas isiah was the system.

You can stick a lot of point guards in the jerry sloans system and they will be super successfull.

Isiah was more of a pure talent, quicker, faster, jumps higher. Stockton was smarter and a better shot. If I was taking either one of them as my best player on a team I would take Isiah. If I had a team with someone better than stockton or isiah I would take stockton.

They are closer than the stats suggest. The stats however favor stockton.
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Old 09-19-2008, 11:05 PM   #15741
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion - Let's Get'er Done

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Unfortunately with the concept of this draft, you miss 3 of isiahs top peak years.

Isiah was definately a better ball player, but the only thing he stockton gets is super longevity.

Isiah also won 2 titles while stockton kept failing even though he had great teams several times.

Isiah beat jordans bulls, stockton lost.

Isaih over stock.
el oh freaking el.

"definately" better? first, that phrase has little qualitative value in this sort of argument. further, you claim stockton only has longevity. (which, it's worth mentioning, is not only impressive, it's near-record material) last, you list the fact isiah won w/ the pistons before jordan's sick teams were lined up, and neglect the fact that the 96-97 jazz that lost to those bulls were one of (by most rankings, including efficiency differential) one of the best 5 teams EVER. (meaning, that jazz team was better then both the thomas-lead pistons, and the jordan-lead bulls of that day).

http://www.basketball-reference.com/...mais01&y2=1994

That is through 13 years of both - Isiahs ENTIRE career, and the same data points that will constrain stockton. (even though he played a full 7 years longer)

You will notice:
-Stockton played more games (was healthier/more consistent)
-Stockton shot higher from the field, much higher from 3pt, and higher from the line. In fact, the TS% is rather striking: .612 vs .516. This efficiency gap isn't even close.
-Stockton got more assists and steals; in fact, even though Stock over this span averaged 4 less mpg (32.8 vs 36.3), he had 11.5 apg to 9.3, 2.4 spg to 1.9, oh, and let me add, was much better with theb all, with 3 topg vs 3.8 topg.
-Per36 mins, the only advantage Thomas had (aside from taking more inefficient shots, generating more points) was .6 more rpg. Congrats! Well, 1 more trip to the line (and same # of pf per game) so I suppose he was slightly better in the foul differential game, but that's negligible.
-PER favors Stock by a healthy margin (21.8 to 18.1), ORtg by a HUGE margin (121 to 106), DRtg by a decent clip (104 to 107),..

Honestly, Stockton was a much better PG, and THAT isn't even close.
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Old 09-19-2008, 11:16 PM   #15742
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion - Let's Get'er Done

Well said guys... It's not close, Stockton and Thomas are equally under and overrated..
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Old 09-19-2008, 11:27 PM   #15743
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion - Let's Get'er Done

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Im not really sure about it, but I would say that stockton was more of a product of the system. Whereas isiah was the system.

You can stick a lot of point guards in the jerry sloans system and they will be super successfull.
I'm going to look at the PGs Sloan has had. I'll even ignore his first 3 years as a Bulls coach, since he had less of an "imprint" on that team. So, from 1988+, he has been the head coach. The PGs:

Stockton (entire career with the Jazz, 1984-2002/03)
Stock's MPG were fairly consistent from 35+, at just under 30 or so on. Which enabled a backup to get play. this means PG play was relevant from 1997-98 on.

Jacque Vaughn 1997-98 through 2000-01
John Crotty 2000-01 through 2001-02
Carlos Arroyo 2002-03 through 2003-04
Raul Lopez 2003-04 through 2004-05
Deron Williams 2005-06 through the present

1. Jacque Vaughn w/ the Jazz (4 yrs) 13.4 mpg, 10.9 PER, .509 TS, 97 ORtg/106 DRtg, per 36: 11.6, 6.5, 3.3 tov.
Jacque Vaughn career (11 yrs+) 16.6 mpg, 10.2 PER, .503 TS, 101 ORtg/107 DRtg, per 36: 9.9, 5.4, 2.3 tov. Played better with the Jazz.

2. John Crotty w/ the Jazz (3 then 2 yrs) 9.5 mpg, 13.4 PER, .542 TS, 109/108. 12.1, 7.7, 2.9.
John Crotty career (10 yrs) 12.1 mpg, 12.7 PER, .554 TS, 109 ORtg/108 DRtg, per 36: 11.8, 6.2, 2.7 tov. Played better with the Jazz.

3. Carlos Arroyo w/ the Jazz (~3 yrs) 15.9 PER, .511 ts, 105/107. 15.2, 6.5, 2.8 tov.
Carlos Arroyo career (7+) 18.2 mpg, 14.3 PER, .507 ts, 105/108. 13.8, 6.4, 2.6 tov. Played better with the Jazz.

4. Raul Lopez/Deron Williams: Only played with the Jazz.

So... Are ALL these PGs "products of the system" ???
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Old 09-20-2008, 12:10 AM   #15744
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion - Let's Get'er Done

saw Calvin Booth at the Wynn the other night(sorry for naming undrafted players!!)
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Old 09-20-2008, 12:14 AM   #15745
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion - Let's Get'er Done

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and neglect the fact that the 96-97 jazz that lost to those bulls were one of (by most rankings, including efficiency differential) one of the best 5 teams EVER.
do you have a link or is this just homer hyperbole?

As for the argument, I have no clue why Stockton is so underrated. Maybe its just the "slow white guy" perception that so many people have. Hes easily better than Zeke though.
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Old 09-20-2008, 12:18 AM   #15746
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion - Let's Get'er Done

Stockton's better by just about every metric e/c scoring and titles, 1 of which is highly overrated (he was pretty inefficient), and 1 which was more of a function of what great teams he was on.
Stockton was a better passer, longer career, much more efficient, better defender, the list goes on and on.
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Old 09-20-2008, 04:22 AM   #15747
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion - Let's Get'er Done

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Hes easily better than Zeke though.
Depends on what metrics you're using. Better at passing, shooting, defense? Sure. Better at rocking short shorts? Noooo





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Old 09-20-2008, 07:22 AM   #15748
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion - Let's Get'er Done

How is stockton underated, isnt he known as a top 5 PG in basketball history, I dont know how that can mean being underated.

As for this argument, I agree with all the points you guys have made about stockton being way more efficient. I will even concede that he is better than Isiah, because I just cannot overlook the longevity factor.

If I was to take each PG as my number 1 pick to start a brand new team and I was to have them for only 5 of their peak years I would take Isiah.


Isiah knew what it took to win games, him taking a fade away driving jumper was better than lambier taking a 3, or whatever or whoever was on his team during the championships. Maybe stockton should have taken more shots, could his high efficiency possibly hurt the team. Have you conisdered that point.

Looking at johnnies stats, the trend seems to be the more threes he shot in the year the better his percentage got. This could also be attributed to sloan wanting to run the half court offense so badly he wouldnt allow stockton to pull on those fast break threes to often. I, however could not imagine any coach let alone sloan telling a shooter a calibur of stockton to not take an open 3 in the fast break with malone running the wing in position for a rebound.

After looking over stats however I do concede stockton is better than Isiah.

If they were to play 1 on 1 isiah beats stockton 11 to 4.
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Old 09-20-2008, 07:25 AM   #15749
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion - Let's Get'er Done

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saw Calvin Booth at the Wynn the other night(sorry for naming undrafted players!!)
Saw olden polynice at the commerce tonight.

Later in the same night a player sat next to me with markered writing on his hat.

He later told me some NBA player signed his cap in the parking lot, with a nice drawing of pocket aces at the end of the signing.

Awful nice of OP to take the time out and make a nice sign, instead of just scribbling his initials like some players do.
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Old 09-20-2008, 09:01 AM   #15750
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion - Let's Get'er Done

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If they were to play 1 on 1 isiah beats stockton 11 to 4.
He's a PG, who cares. Isiah was a very good pg, just Stockton was better.
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