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Old 08-30-2008, 09:42 AM   #15626
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion - Let's Get'er Done

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I don't think big men are as valuable as all the emphasis that has been going into them. Good scoring guards that can play great dee are more valuble.

Big men cannot finish the game off strong, in the last minutes of a game you need a strong scoring guard or your gonna be in trouble such as the shaq team who is he gonna go to when yes down by 3 with 65 seconds to go in the game.

Scoring from the post was of high value in the days where guards didn't shoot 7-10 ftpg but now that gurads can draw even more fouls than big men do, they have lost a lot of their value.

Big men of today need to be given more value defensivley, averaging 3 bfg this year is the equivalent of 5bpg in the years pre 00 when.
I guess so, but look at what wins in the NBA, other than the Michael era, it's someone who can guard the paint + score points + good guard play, atleast that's been the formula for most of the last 30 years. Shaq + kobe/wade, DUncan + Manu/Parker/Daniels/Jackson, Hakeem + Drexler/Cassell, Kareem, Worthy + Magic, etc. I think overcoming FT issues is pretty easy, both the Lakers and the Spurs have been near the bottom in FT every year during there runs and came out fine.
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Old 08-30-2008, 12:23 PM   #15627
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion - Let's Get'er Done

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I don't think big men are as valuable as all the emphasis that has been going into them. Good scoring guards that can play great dee are more valuble.

Big men cannot finish the game off strong, in the last minutes of a game you need a strong scoring guard or your gonna be in trouble such as the shaq team who is he gonna go to when yes down by 3 with 65 seconds to go in the game.

Scoring from the post was of high value in the days where guards didn't shoot 7-10 ftpg but now that gurads can draw even more fouls than big men do, they have lost a lot of their value.

Big men of today need to be given more value defensivley, averaging 3 bfg this year is the equivalent of 5bpg in the years pre 00 when.
Disagree highly, a dominate bigman who is as good as a dominate guard is more valueable. Not only do they score more efficently (yes even with the ft attempts factored in), they get "easy 2's" more. And obviously a huge part of a bigman is defense, as its more important to have great defenders as bigman than guards (although some people are dismissing good/great defensive guards as they don't matter which is ridiculous). That's why if u have an elite bigman who is a great offensive player as well as defender such as Duncan, Hakeem, Robinson, Ewing, McHale etc. you are far ahead of the curve. And if your bigman can shoot ft's really well like McHale!, it helps during the game and especially during end of the game situations.

Regardless bigmen are def more important even in this league. You brought up one scenerio which isn't even good/true as a team with a dominate bigman can get a quick easy 2 and cut it to 1 and play great defense and get the ball back with a chance to take the lead/win.

The only example where a bigman isn't as important is down by 3 with 2-3 seconds left, but if you have a good/great 3pt shooting team, and at least 1 guy who can shoot an off balance 3 with a man in his face ur fine.
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Old 08-30-2008, 06:26 PM   #15628
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion - Let's Get'er Done

Yes big men are obviously more valuble than guards. What I am saying is the gap between that is not as big as everyone seems to make it, at least not in the last 8 years.

There use to be a lot of big men who were able to occupy enough space defensively to be great defenders. Now with the way fouls are being so favored for guards, the big men are not as effective defenders. We have seen blocked shots go down dramatically and the amount of shots that big men even contest have gone down dramatically. In alonzo mournings hayday he would contest every single shot taken within 10 feet of him. He would block a shot someone else would get a rebound try an put it up, he would contest that they get it back, you get the point. I havent seen anything like that since those days. It use to be rare for 7 footers to take charges, now you see them very commonly.

Offensively, guards can get easy inside buckets just as easily as big men can. If kobe,wade,carmelo,james, want to get a shot in the paint there is no way they can be denied it( without at least a double team) . They choose to take jumpers, just like shaq chose to take turn around fade aways a long the baseline even tho he could dunk almost every posession.


Also in the example given above, big men have always needed a good-great guard to help them win a title, they cannot do it alone. Where as there have been great guards who have won titles on their own without the help of a great big man. A great guard has more control over a game than a great big man can have. A great big man can be countered with double teams, zone defenses, and other defenses. While it is much more difficult to do that to a guard.

Last edited by NopairParker; 08-30-2008 at 06:32 PM.
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Old 08-30-2008, 06:45 PM   #15629
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion - Let's Get'er Done

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I don't think big men are as valuable as all the emphasis that has been going into them. Good scoring guards that can play great dee are more valuble.
You said this, which means u implied guards are more valueable than bigmen. I disagree and still do.

Now I do think the gap is closer than most people think, I will give u that.

I do disagree with Kobe, Wade etc. always being able to get easy 2's, this is ridiculous. You can cut off their penetration to the hoop if u have a great defender on them, not always but def a decent amount and you don't have to double team all the time.

It's a lot harder to stop a bigman from getting an easy 2 because they play close to the hoop and can post up. And I dunno why u think it's easier to guard a bigman with "zone defenses, double teams and other defenses etc." than it is on guards. I think it's a lot easier to double team guards as u have more chances to since they are farther away from the hoop and you have more time to react. A bigman can just get fed the ball in the post and quickly make a move and there really is no chance u can double unless u were overplaying to begin with, in which case the ball would have gone to someone else.

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Old 08-30-2008, 09:04 PM   #15630
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion - Let's Get'er Done

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You said this, which means u implied guards are more valueable than bigmen. I disagree and still do.

Now I do think the gap is closer than most people think, I will give u that.

I do disagree with Kobe, Wade etc. always being able to get easy 2's, this is ridiculous. You can cut off their penetration to the hoop if u have a great defender on them, not always but def a decent amount and you don't have to double team all the time.

It's a lot harder to stop a bigman from getting an easy 2 because they play close to the hoop and can post up. And I dunno why u think it's easier to guard a bigman with "zone defenses, double teams and other defenses etc." than it is on guards. I think it's a lot easier to double team guards as u have more chances to since they are farther away from the hoop and you have more time to react. A bigman can just get fed the ball in the post and quickly make a move and there really is no chance u can double unless u were overplaying to begin with, in which case the ball would have gone to someone else.

A guard that is that good, will have post up skills as well and can post up just like a big man can.

A guard is much harder to double team, because guards are better passers and better ball handlers, they can dribble away from the effective point of double teams to find wide open men easier.

You absolutely cannot stop a great guard from getting to the hoop with just 1 man guarding him. Good team defense can stop them from getting in the lane at the sacrifice of leaving someone a little more open.

A guard with good post skills is almost as difficult to defend as a big man with similar skills. Guard has the extra option of turning and facing up, which is so hard to defend when they can shoot as well. Like kobe or carmelo, when they catch it in the post and turn and face up without commiting a dribble is so difficult to defend.

Big men need someone to give them the ball , and get them the ball in the right places. If they dont have that kind of help from the team, they can be deemed in-effective. Guards dont need anyone to get them the ball, they can take it themselves to whatever spot on the court they wanna go to.

If there is good guard pressure, for example lets say a team has gary payton, and bruce bowen as their starting guards. They can put so much pressure on opposing guards that they cant even get the ball to the post, the big men will have to come out free throw line extended to retrieve the ball. Similar to the kind of pressure the USA guards put on the opposing countries. It wont be as effective as it was in the olympics, but it would be to a similar effect.


Big men are far more important defensively, but guards are more important offensively. The gap between the 2 is much bigger defensively, which is why big men are more valuable then guards.
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Old 08-31-2008, 08:58 AM   #15631
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion - Let's Get'er Done

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A guard that is that good, will have post up skills as well and can post up just like a big man can.

A guard is much harder to double team, because guards are better passers and better ball handlers, they can dribble away from the effective point of double teams to find wide open men easier.

You absolutely cannot stop a great guard from getting to the hoop with just 1 man guarding him. Good team defense can stop them from getting in the lane at the sacrifice of leaving someone a little more open.

A guard with good post skills is almost as difficult to defend as a big man with similar skills. Guard has the extra option of turning and facing up, which is so hard to defend when they can shoot as well. Like kobe or carmelo, when they catch it in the post and turn and face up without commiting a dribble is so difficult to defend.

Big men need someone to give them the ball , and get them the ball in the right places. If they dont have that kind of help from the team, they can be deemed in-effective. Guards dont need anyone to get them the ball, they can take it themselves to whatever spot on the court they wanna go to.

If there is good guard pressure, for example lets say a team has gary payton, and bruce bowen as their starting guards. They can put so much pressure on opposing guards that they cant even get the ball to the post, the big men will have to come out free throw line extended to retrieve the ball. Similar to the kind of pressure the USA guards put on the opposing countries. It wont be as effective as it was in the olympics, but it would be to a similar effect.


Big men are far more important defensively, but guards are more important offensively. The gap between the 2 is much bigger defensively, which is why big men are more valuable then guards.
Uh there is really only one guard with sick post up skills who also has sick dribbling/quickness and he goes by the name Jordan...

You can stop a guard from getting to the basket with 1 man only if there is no pick and it's a straight up iso, you absolutly can. Obviously when you bring a pick, then the whole team suddenly gets involved, because the other teams offense is involved. But if it's just straight up 1 on 1, a sick defender can stop a sick guard from getting to the hoop, not all of the time of course but a decent amount.

When guys like Carmelo/Kobe face up and shoot jumpers right away, u can't double but it's a much lower percentage shot than a bigman in the post.

It's not hard to give the bigman the ball in the right places, as long as u have a supporting cast around him like a lot of our teams do.

And lol at payton/bowen being able to put so much pressure on our guys that they won't even be able to throw the ball into the post. Is that a joke? Yes they are both great defenders, but come on, they are not playing vs college kids, they are playing vs all-stars.
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Old 08-31-2008, 11:05 AM   #15632
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion - Let's Get'er Done

i really want to make my pick so badly, i want a full team
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Old 08-31-2008, 02:24 PM   #15633
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion - Let's Get'er Done

VEF was up, TBACH's turn and Tdarko gets to pick around 5 ET today. I'll PM them all.
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Old 08-31-2008, 03:27 PM   #15634
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion - Let's Get'er Done

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Offensively, guards can get easy inside buckets just as easily as big men can. If kobe,wade,carmelo,james, want to get a shot in the paint there is no way they can be denied it( without at least a double team) . They choose to take jumpers, just like shaq chose to take turn around fade aways a long the baseline even tho he could dunk almost every posession.
No.

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A guard that is that good, will have post up skills as well and can post up just like a big man can.

A guard is much harder to double team, because guards are better passers and better ball handlers, they can dribble away from the effective point of double teams to find wide open men easier.

You absolutely cannot stop a great guard from getting to the hoop with just 1 man guarding him. Good team defense can stop them from getting in the lane at the sacrifice of leaving someone a little more open.

A guard with good post skills is almost as difficult to defend as a big man with similar skills. Guard has the extra option of turning and facing up, which is so hard to defend when they can shoot as well. Like kobe or carmelo, when they catch it in the post and turn and face up without commiting a dribble is so difficult to defend.
Maybe you are correct theoretically, but in real life, guards posting up is a much different dynamic than bigs posting up. When guards post up it is just an extension of their perimeter isolation skills. They post up (I would guess) at least 6 ft. further away from the basket than bigs on average. It creates a much different dynamic than a skilled post player posting up, with regards to spacing and the way the defense has to rotate. This isn't exactly clearly written, but I can clarify if needed.

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And lol at payton/bowen being able to put so much pressure on our guys that they won't even be able to throw the ball into the post. Is that a joke? Yes they are both great defenders, but come on, they are not playing vs college kids, they are playing vs all-stars.
really good ball pressure sometimes leads to the post player getting the ball in a much less advantageous position, sometimes a turnover, and a lot of the time the post player not getting the ball at all
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Old 08-31-2008, 03:30 PM   #15635
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion - Let's Get'er Done

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really good ball pressure sometimes leads to the post player getting the ball in a much less advantageous position, sometimes a turnover, and a lot of the time the post player not getting the ball at all
Yes of course, NoPair was just implying that this would happen a lot which is ridiculous, especially vs other all-stars/good players.
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Old 08-31-2008, 03:36 PM   #15636
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion - Let's Get'er Done

also i've been kind of busy the last few weeks, but i'm going to crap on this thread with a few long posts (what i think about the league in general, specifically what i think about my team, and then what i think about whatever team is next after mine) if you don't agree with my content, whatever. this thread has been dying for content for a few weeks now and i would think any content is better than no content
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Old 08-31-2008, 04:15 PM   #15637
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion - Let's Get'er Done

Please, crap away, I def. agree that this thread is hurting for content
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Old 08-31-2008, 04:21 PM   #15638
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion - Let's Get'er Done

Grabbed this poster from my mom's house on Friday during my birthday dinner. It's awesome and I wanted to post it somewhere, so you win. Yes, I've had it for > 16 years.

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Old 08-31-2008, 04:47 PM   #15639
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion - Let's Get'er Done

What has Drexler done to get lumped together with Laettner as not poster worthy?
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Old 08-31-2008, 05:51 PM   #15640
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion - Let's Get'er Done

With my last pick I am taking another glass man and solid body to come off the bench to bang around.

Loy Vought.

I will write that shiz up.
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Old 08-31-2008, 06:52 PM   #15641
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion - Let's Get'er Done

Finally. Definitely some hometown bias on my part, but Vaught was pretty damn good for a period of about 4 years. It's not saying much, but he was definitely the best player on the Clips in the mid-90s or so.

Not too much of a post game from what I remember, but seemingly automatic from 12-16 ft, especially from the corners. "Vaught, from his spot" is probably my second favorite Ralph Lawler-ism behind "BINGO". He was a pretty big beast on the boards, and averaged a double-double three years running in his prime. Coulda been remembered as a poor man's Oakley if he hadn't been absolutely wrecked by injuries at 29.

Him and Bo Outlaw were two of my favorite players growing up haha. Funny that I think that Loy got picked way late and Bo way early in this.
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Old 08-31-2008, 06:57 PM   #15642
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion - Let's Get'er Done

oh my ****ing god, i deleted what i was going to write. going to be delayed
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Old 08-31-2008, 07:41 PM   #15643
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion - Let's Get'er Done

so fanmail is on the clock now.

people with currently skipped picks that can take them as they wish:

FaDi
sammykid11
tbach (2)
GKA
van_exel_fan
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Old 08-31-2008, 07:43 PM   #15644
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion - Let's Get'er Done

I think Bobo posted for tbach his pick. Didn't put it in pick thread though.
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Old 08-31-2008, 08:03 PM   #15645
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion - Let's Get'er Done

Vaught is a great pick here, I probboly should have picked him for my previous pick because of my huge weakness at rebounding
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Old 08-31-2008, 09:49 PM   #15646
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion - Let's Get'er Done

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I think Bobo posted for tbach his pick. Didn't put it in pick thread though.
I don't remember that. Bobbo posted one of GKA's picks, but he had another one immediately afterward that he didn't make. Not sure when we last heard from tbach.
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Old 09-01-2008, 01:57 AM   #15647
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft ***OFFICIAL THREAD!!!!!!***

This looks like fun. I wish I got in on the draft sooner. Maybe next time.
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Old 09-01-2008, 02:08 AM   #15648
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft ***OFFICIAL THREAD!!!!!!***

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This looks like fun. I wish I got in on the draft sooner. Maybe next time.
wat are you
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Old 09-01-2008, 10:46 AM   #15649
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion - Let's Get'er Done

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I think Bobo posted for tbach his pick. Didn't put it in pick thread though.
no, i posted for GKA once, tbach strangely has been quiet
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Old 09-01-2008, 10:52 AM   #15650
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion - Let's Get'er Done

my bad
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