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Old 08-20-2008, 02:17 PM   #15526
Assani Fisher
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion - Let's Get'er Done

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Originally Posted by flyingmoose View Post
Of course Shaq is better than Hakeem. Let's not forget that they changed the rules and brought the zone back largely because Shaq was too dominant, and that every tall-and-fat guy under the sun was getting a contract in the fruitless hope that there might be someone who could get in Shaq's way a little. That said, I love Hakeem and would have taken him 4th, after Magic and before LeBron.

All the arguments against biiiigchips' team have been unconvincing to me. First you have kidcolin simply saying that the 3rd and 4th best players are "too knuckleheady"; Then Epeen says that their offense is poor because they will *only* have two great shooters on the court at a time. This completely discredits the playmaking and passing ability of this team as well as the individual efficiency of the premier scorers. It's like he's assuming they'll just run every play through Hakeem and if you can't hit a 3 you'll be worthless on offense. Then he makes a patently false claim about Odom and of course he goes into a digression about how awesome McHale is for no reason whatsoever. Then, inexplicably, Bobbo quotes this bunch of nonsense and says "I agree with all of this." Epippen did have a good point that Chips' team lacks any great perimeter defense so maybe Bobbo stopped reading after that...

Speaking of Bobbo, I think his team is one of the more underrated ones. No matter how much you hate the Coleman pick, he still has ****ing Shaq. Ainge was a great addition to the squad, Nene was a late round steal (assuming he can keep his nuts cancer free). I like this squad a lot and may have it in my top 5 when we get around to rankings.
Offensively, I do like his team. The only problem is that they don't have a great one-on-one wing player for last second shots or to force up(and make) tough shots when the shot clock is winding down. Moreover, I think that have a lot of guys that need the ball to be effective. Glen Rice wasn't just a spot up shooter, but with all of the touches that Hakeem/Strickland/Odom(and even West to some extent) are going to need, thats pretty much what he'll have to become on that team, and that sucks when you drafted him with your 2nd overall pick.

Defensively, I love Hakeem and think the rest of the team is below average.

If you said that they were top 5 offensively, I may disagree but I wouldn't care to argue as I think its close.

Defensively, probably not even top 15 though.

So overall I think they're probably above average, but I just don't see them as a top team.
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Old 08-20-2008, 02:18 PM   #15527
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion - Let's Get'er Done

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Top 5 centers, IMO

Offensively

Shaq>>>>>>>>>>>>Drob>Hakeem>Mourning (when healthy)>>>Mutombo (but less than some think, especially for the purpose of this draft)

Defensively

Mutombo>>Drob>Hakeem>>>Shaq (who's underrated)

Overall

Shaq>>Drob>Hakeem>>Mourning (when healthy)>>>Mutombo

Howard and Yao are too green to rate. I think Shaq is very underrated by much of this forum. Sure the dude was lazy at times, but being that much better than everyone made up for it. Hakeem, on the other hand, seems to be overrated by many.
I'lll stay out of it to avoid bias, but I'd be interested in seeing you include Duncan on these lists as a center and placing him somewhere.

Also I think Mutombo>Mourning, but I agree its close. Mutombo was just so good on D.
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Old 08-20-2008, 02:25 PM   #15528
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion - Let's Get'er Done

Also it's been over 24 hours since tdarko picked, so tbach should be skipped and it's vanexelfans turn
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Old 08-20-2008, 02:26 PM   #15529
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion - Let's Get'er Done

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When you double team, the defeneses assignment is either to recover to your orginal man or rotate. So lets say larry bird doubles off of lamar odom on the strong side of the ball, odom will immediately cut to the basket if the weak side man doesnt recover to help then odom has a layup. If the weak side man does help he has an easy pass to who ever that man was guarding. So Glen rice will still get open looks even if you obviously dont double off of him directly, if anything it will help cover him better if you double off of him directly and have backside rotation so rice will have to make a pass which is one of his weaknesses. Now if instead of odom this cut was made by kwame brown than we have a different story, defense will allow him to try an score and most of the time he wont. This is why having we say hakeem has great help with his supporting cast there is no real weakness. Strickland is such a great passer and ball handler any space he gets its gonna create an easy look also.

To state your point simply: Most times, the "open man" off of a double team is the guy receiving the SECOND PASS out of the double team.

This is because when executing a double team, the defender near the top of the key has the responsibility of guarding whomever gets the first pass out of the double team, and this is usually a fairly easy responsibility. However, the 2nd pass must either be another defender rotating over or the guy who was doubling, whose responsibility is to run and chase the 2nd pass once the offensive player has passed out of the double. And these responsibilities are a bit tougher to recognize and react to.

As an aside, it drives me absolutely crazy when playing pickup games to be on offense, one of us gets double teamed and kicks it out, and the guy just catches the ball and holds onto it for a few seconds(or dribbles around going nowhere) instead of rotating the ball which will nearly always produce a wide open look against unorganized pickup defense.
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Old 08-20-2008, 02:29 PM   #15530
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion - Let's Get'er Done

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Im sure in practice iverson lets anthony carter beat him all the time. Were talkin a bout practice.


Playoff domination to psychological proportions.

Please dont compare with shaq, I like robinson arguments a lot better.
The problem is that you're using a ridiculously small sample size for your entire point, and it could easily be explained as simple variance.


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And yet I kinda agree with KC. And I'm a Spurs' fan. A Spurs fan who became a Spurs fan because of David Robinson. Luckily Timmy came along.
I actually would rank Hakeem>DRob, but I think its much much closer than most people think.
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Old 08-20-2008, 02:30 PM   #15531
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion - Let's Get'er Done

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Another comment I would like debated.

If im starting a franchise in the year 85 I take duncan over lebron by far margain.

Team starting in year 2000 I take lebron hands down.

Thoughts and possible reasons.
I'm not sure what you're getting at, but I disagree. Players were less athletic back then, so Lebron's athleticism advantage would be even bigger. You think freakish body types like Tayshuan Prince have trouble guarding Lebron??? Just think about what he'd do to 1985 guys. Duncan, on the other hand, doesn't really rely upon athleticism and would produce similar results as he did in real life imo.
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Old 08-20-2008, 02:33 PM   #15532
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion - Let's Get'er Done

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yeah pretty much. I've always been conscious and try to factor it in. I basically just make a note of it for guys who couldn't shoot 3s who suddenly could.
which years had the short 3?
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Old 08-20-2008, 02:38 PM   #15533
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion - Let's Get'er Done

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God ur so annoying and ur avatar makes it even worse, u ignore like 99 percent of my arguments and always nitpick the smallest things.

Yes that's fine that he abused the short 3 era, I was simply responding to NoPair's response that the Bulls sucked at shooting the 3's the 2nd time around, which they didn't even if it was with the shorter 3pt line.
I know you were. I wasn't disagreeing with your point, so why would I address it? I specifically quoted that single sentence for a reason, so as to avoid confusion and not make it seem like I disagreed with the fact that MJ had some solid 3pt threats in his time. I was just sharing some knowledge that many seem to overlook (the short 3 era in general). You wouldn't get so annoyed all the time if you didn't think every single reply to you is an affront to your intellect.

Assani,

Doesn't everyone think it's razor-thin close? I always have.
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Old 08-20-2008, 02:39 PM   #15534
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion - Let's Get'er Done

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which years had the short 3?
'94-'95 through '96-'97
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Old 08-20-2008, 03:12 PM   #15535
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion - Let's Get'er Done

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Assani,

Doesn't everyone think it's razor-thin close? I always have.
In my experience, 90+% of people rank Hakeem above DRob without really thinking about it or adding in "actually its really really close though and could go either way."
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Old 08-20-2008, 03:21 PM   #15536
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion - Let's Get'er Done

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I'lll stay out of it to avoid bias, but I'd be interested in seeing you include Duncan on these lists as a center and placing him somewhere.

Also I think Mutombo>Mourning, but I agree its close. Mutombo was just so good on D.
Overall I'd put Duncan at #2 behind Shaq. Defensively #2 behind Mutombo. Offensively he's probably in the middle, but for the purpose of this draft, with deeper 10 man rotations, he might be even more valuable since he's such a great passer.

Mourning is tough to rate because of his injuries...

Oh and add me to the camp that has Robinson ahead of Hakeem.
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Old 08-20-2008, 03:22 PM   #15537
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion - Let's Get'er Done

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In my experience, 90+% of people rank Hakeem above DRob without really thinking about it or adding in "actually its really really close though and could go either way."
Yeah, I think this is right. Plus, you have the whole "Robinson's a puss" reputation (deserved or not).
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Old 08-20-2008, 05:00 PM   #15538
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion - Let's Get'er Done

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I definitely would've swallowed some value and tried to trade Boozer or Dirk since I don't really see how either of them can defend elite SFs that are in this league(or any SFs really).
Yeah, that possibility didn't even occur to me. If I was drafting, looking at the available players, I probably take Mullin after Dirk (no idea if I'd take Dirk first, haven't even thought that through), and that changes the whole makeup of the team from there.

Quote:
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Your drafting after those picks was good but not great imo. I love Calderon, but you definitely did reach for him(not saying thats a bad thing though), and for some reason I remember Maherle being better than his numbers.
I def. reached for Calderon but he was the guy I wanted and I didn't think he'd be available when I picked next (in hindsight I was probably wrong). I remember Majerle being better than his #s too but he is a good defender and I needed someone who could actually shut down a wing.

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Originally Posted by Assani Fisher View Post
I do really like your last 3 picks, and I definitely had my eye on all 3 of them around where you took them.
Thanks.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Assani Fisher View Post
As a team, I think your offense has the ability to flow very very well. Defensively though, I'll listen to your argument but I think its going to be a tough sell.
Defensively, I think our plan is to outscore other people. Nothing on this team remotely resembles an elite collection of defenders, so we're gonna do our best to try to slow them down and to just score every time we have the ball. For the most part I drafted hyper-efficient offensive players with this in mind. flyingmoose said my team looks like it plans to win by scoring 140 every night, and that's probably not too inaccurate.

Also, depending on how Calderon and Brewer develop, this team could be a real beast in 3-4 years.
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Old 08-20-2008, 05:49 PM   #15539
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion - Let's Get'er Done

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Yeah, that possibility didn't even occur to me. If I was drafting, looking at the available players, I probably take Mullin after Dirk (no idea if I'd take Dirk first, haven't even thought that through), and that changes the whole makeup of the team from there.
Speaking of Mullin -- what a sick 67th pick.

It makes me a little sick to think about the sleepers I passed on. If I had been a little less ******ed and taken Ewing/Mullin with my first two picks, I might have the best team right now without having to draft differently elsewhere.

I digress. If you had taken Mullin over Boozer your team would be leagues better but I'm curious -- how would having Mullin have affected your future picks?
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Old 08-20-2008, 09:58 PM   #15540
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion - Let's Get'er Done

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Yeah, I think this is right. Plus, you have the whole "Robinson's a puss" reputation (deserved or not).
I don't think Robinson ever really got his due as an offensive player. A lot of Hakeem's value comes from playing forever and not missing that one year Admiral missed.
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Old 08-21-2008, 06:47 PM   #15541
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion - Let's Get'er Done

tbach and sergsz skipped, AC-Cobra up
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Old 08-21-2008, 07:36 PM   #15542
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion - Let's Get'er Done

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I digress. If you had taken Mullin over Boozer your team would be leagues better but I'm curious -- how would having Mullin have affected your future picks?
I actually have no idea. I feel like I would've tried to grab a strong big man sooner, but they were flying off the board so fast anyone would've been a reach. It might not have affected anything at all... Christ, what an offensive insanity a Calderon / Majerle / Mullin / Dirk / Donaldson starting five would have been.

Now I wish I'd done this from the get-go. I didn't because I didn't think I knew enough about basketball for me to be of any use, but the whole thing has been a tremendous learning experience.
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Old 08-22-2008, 12:11 AM   #15543
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion - Let's Get'er Done

The day of my second pick I got my once-a-year, super horrible cold. I just absolutely couldn't think straight and despite really wanting to pick Vlade, I somehow talked myself into choosing Boozer. I really handicapped what could have been a very good team.

I really was out of my depth anyways, something I realized when Larry Nance (who?) was picked.

My Steve Francis hate aside, I like what you've done with the team, Nath.
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Old 08-22-2008, 09:50 PM   #15544
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion - Let's Get'er Done



seriously. Wasn't even on my radar's radar.
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Old 08-22-2008, 09:58 PM   #15545
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion - Let's Get'er Done

I like both these picks, particularly Stoudamire, a guy I was surprised fell this far.
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Old 08-22-2008, 11:00 PM   #15546
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion - Let's Get'er Done

After this current draft is done and all the debate as to who wins and what not.

there should be another draft with different years specified. Like 95 and later or 00 and later. Current enough so that everyone would have seen everyone play.

Some people are not getting enough credit for their picks because no one has seen them play.
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Old 08-22-2008, 11:05 PM   #15547
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion - Let's Get'er Done

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I actually have no idea. I feel like I would've tried to grab a strong big man sooner, but they were flying off the board so fast anyone would've been a reach. It might not have affected anything at all... Christ, what an offensive insanity a Calderon / Majerle / Mullin / Dirk / Donaldson starting five would have been.

Now I wish I'd done this from the get-go. I didn't because I didn't think I knew enough about basketball for me to be of any use, but the whole thing has been a tremendous learning experience.
If you wanted offensive insanity, you could've gone:

Dirk
Mullin
Kevin Martin
Monta Ellis
Donaldson
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Old 08-23-2008, 12:14 AM   #15548
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion - Let's Get'er Done

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If you wanted offensive insanity, you could've gone:

Dirk
Mullin
Kevin Martin
Monta Ellis
Donaldson
Monta is on the block !
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Old 08-24-2008, 01:21 AM   #15549
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion - Let's Get'er Done

anyone confirm/deny if I am now up?
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Old 08-24-2008, 12:56 PM   #15550
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion - Let's Get'er Done

yea u are up xorbie is skipped
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