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Old 08-19-2008, 07:36 PM   #15501
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion - Let's Get'er Done

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Speaking of Bobbo, I think his team is one of the more underrated ones. No matter how much you hate the Coleman pick, he still has ****ing Shaq. Ainge was a great addition to the squad, Nene was a late round steal (assuming he can keep his nuts cancer free). I like this squad a lot and may have it in my top 5 when we get around to rankings.
I agree it's a great team, but Nene def ain't a steal. And I think the Micheal Williams pick was overrated highly by him (way too influenced by PER, didn't address biggest need).

If it weren't for health concerns he'd be in my fave 5, and even still he's close.
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Old 08-19-2008, 07:43 PM   #15502
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion - Let's Get'er Done

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For what it's worth, I agreed with you earlier when you made your 5 Carmellos vs 3 Carmellos, 2 Battiers point. I actually disagreed with the specific example because I think the 5 Carmello team would have too much of a rebounding advantage, but I agreed with the heart of your point, which is that an offense works better with some 3-point shooting to space the floor. However, I think that having 2 great 3-point threats is fine because at that's enough to unclog the lane.

In other words I agree that you need some floor spacing to get the most out of your best players, but I feel that teams don't need quite as much of it as you think they do, and I think you undervalue other talents in 2nd, 3rd and 4th options.
The problem is chips only has 2 great 3pt shooting players on his entire team, and neither of them will be playing 48 mpg. Infact I doubt Hodges will even average 30.

That means there will be a ton of time where there is only 1 great 3pt shooter on the floor, making it much easier to double Hakeem and I know my team will be immediatly doubling Hakeem every single time he touches the ball in the post.
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Old 08-19-2008, 08:02 PM   #15503
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion - Let's Get'er Done

meh.. plenty of teams have that problem. Not every team has capable 3pt shooters from multiple positions. He's got 2 GREAT 3pt shooters, 1 solid guy in Jalen. Odom stinks but he'll shoot them anyway . Problem is they all play the same position, though Glen can play the 3. I actually don't remember which he plays more. But still, Rice is good enough to rain away.

It's def a good team and I think you're overselling its pitfalls.
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Old 08-19-2008, 08:04 PM   #15504
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion - Let's Get'er Done

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meh.. plenty of teams have that problem. Not every team has capable 3pt shooters from multiple positions. He's got 2 GREAT 3pt shooters, 1 solid guy in Jalen. Odom stinks but he'll shoot them anyway . Problem is they all play the same position, though Glen can play the 3. I actually don't remember which he plays more. But still, Rice is good enough to rain away.

It's def a good team and I think you're overselling its pitfalls.
I never said it wasn't a good team, just that it def wasn't the best like some were claiming it to be, nor was it even in the top 5. Heck I wouldn't put it in the top 10 either, it's prob around the 11-15 range off the top of my head which is a good team and above average.
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Old 08-19-2008, 11:52 PM   #15505
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion - Let's Get'er Done

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The dream is the best big man in this draft. He dominated all the other great big men in this draft. So when its time for heads up games, he will out play robinson shaq, ewing.
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, olajuwon will dominate any big man that guards him. He has made david robinson and shaq both look like fools.
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How can anyone say the dream is not the best center in this draft. He repeatadly beat up on the other top centers, even when the other centers had great teams. He absolutley embarrassed shaq and robinson.


Here were Shaq's and Hakeem's numbers in the 20 games they played against each other(14 of which were won by Shaq's team btw):

Hakeem: 18.4 points on 44.7% shooting, 9.1 rebounds, 2.9 assists, 2.4 blocks
Shaq: 22.1 points on 54.4% shooting, 12.4 rebounds, 3.6 assists, 1.8 blocks

edit: I see Dudd already made this point now.
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Old 08-19-2008, 11:56 PM   #15506
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion - Let's Get'er Done

Shaq>Hakeem=Robinson, imo.
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Old 08-19-2008, 11:56 PM   #15507
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His head-to-head battles with Robinson in that ONE playoff series is pretty much why I prefer Olajuwon, which is kinda silly.
I actually wrote a long post about this earlier in the thread. It seems as if NEARLY EVERYONE ranks Hakeem over Robinson for this very reason, and I think its horrific logic.
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Old 08-19-2008, 11:58 PM   #15508
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion - Let's Get'er Done

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The argument with robinson is close, but Hakeem is a step an a half better.


Look at hakeems numbers the years houston won the championships.

Look at robinsons numbers the years spurs won the championships.

Case settled.
Do you seriously think this is a legitimate argument? LOL@ "case settled" because of two year's worth of playoff.
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Old 08-20-2008, 12:15 AM   #15509
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion - Let's Get'er Done

michael jordan won 3 titles with basically no great 3 point shooters in the starting lineup the second time around.

You do not have to be a great shooter to score off of double teams. If you double team off of odom and he gets the ball, hes gonna either get to the hole easily or pass it to someone whos gonna be open.

For those of you who have never coached basketball your not understanding the way a double team works.

When you double team, the defeneses assignment is either to recover to your orginal man or rotate. So lets say larry bird doubles off of lamar odom on the strong side of the ball, odom will immediately cut to the basket if the weak side man doesnt recover to help then odom has a layup. If the weak side man does help he has an easy pass to who ever that man was guarding. So Glen rice will still get open looks even if you obviously dont double off of him directly, if anything it will help cover him better if you double off of him directly and have backside rotation so rice will have to make a pass which is one of his weaknesses. Now if instead of odom this cut was made by kwame brown than we have a different story, defense will allow him to try an score and most of the time he wont. This is why having we say hakeem has great help with his supporting cast there is no real weakness. Strickland is such a great passer and ball handler any space he gets its gonna create an easy look also.

The point being if you have good offensive players it makes it very difficult to double team. With the team he has you cannot double Olajuwon too often, and he has proven to torch any defender no matter how good if he isnt doubled.


That was a good point made about shaq getting a rule change because of his dominance.


Still you cannot be considered a top big man if your such a weakness on defense that opposing coaches run plays against you. do you not realize how bad this is. Another is his huge free throw shooting inefficiancy, you could basically take him out of the game in the 4th quarter by fouling him. Shaq could not ever be successfull without a dominant guard to help him.

Hakeem proved he could be dominant with no real help, robinson did to some degree.

Shaqs great fieldgoal percentage is a great plus, but everyone is getting hyped up about how dominating of a force he was and how he could just back his man down and down on them so easily. Basically the range of his shots is what makes people think they were any easier than a 8 foot jump hook by the dream. Comparing shaq going up for a dunk to hakeem taking a 8 foot jump hook is brought even closer together when you factor in shaq will get fouled purposely at least half the time and he will miss at least 1 free throw. Shaq is better offensively, i admit to that, but not far enough to make up for how far back he is on defense.
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Old 08-20-2008, 12:18 AM   #15510
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion - Let's Get'er Done

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Here were Shaq's and Hakeem's numbers in the 20 games they played against each other(14 of which were won by Shaq's team btw):

Hakeem: 18.4 points on 44.7% shooting, 9.1 rebounds, 2.9 assists, 2.4 blocks
Shaq: 22.1 points on 54.4% shooting, 12.4 rebounds, 3.6 assists, 1.8 blocks

edit: I see Dudd already made this point now.

Im sure in practice iverson lets anthony carter beat him all the time. Were talkin a bout practice.


Playoff domination to psychological proportions.

Please dont compare with shaq, I like robinson arguments a lot better.
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Old 08-20-2008, 12:29 AM   #15511
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion - Let's Get'er Done

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I actually wrote a long post about this earlier in the thread. It seems as if NEARLY EVERYONE ranks Hakeem over Robinson for this very reason, and I think its horrific logic.
And yet I kinda agree with KC. And I'm a Spurs' fan. A Spurs fan who became a Spurs fan because of David Robinson. Luckily Timmy came along.
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Old 08-20-2008, 12:31 AM   #15512
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion - Let's Get'er Done

Another comment I would like debated.

If im starting a franchise in the year 85 I take duncan over lebron by far margain.

Team starting in year 2000 I take lebron hands down.

Thoughts and possible reasons.
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Old 08-20-2008, 01:14 AM   #15513
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion - Let's Get'er Done

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And yet I kinda agree with KC. And I'm a Spurs' fan. A Spurs fan who became a Spurs fan because of David Robinson. Luckily Timmy came along.
yeah exactly. I know it's illogical but at the same time I know Olajuwon is out there fasting for a month harnessing the power of Allah to just go out and soul crush. Meanwhile D-Rob comes off as a big ninny and when it mattered got his ass handed to him.
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Old 08-20-2008, 01:14 AM   #15514
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion - Let's Get'er Done

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Im sure in practice iverson lets anthony carter beat him all the time. Were talkin a bout practice.


Playoff domination to psychological proportions.

Please dont compare with shaq, I like robinson arguments a lot better.
28/12.5/6 with 2 blocks on 59.5% shooting in the Finals
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Old 08-20-2008, 04:29 AM   #15515
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion - Let's Get'er Done

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Seadood,are those your overall top 5 centers? Like, do you really have Mourning and Mutombo ahead of Ewing?
Forgot about Patrick, I'd put him ahead of Mourning.
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Old 08-20-2008, 09:54 AM   #15516
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion - Let's Get'er Done

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michael jordan won 3 titles with basically no great 3 point shooters in the starting lineup the second time around.

You do not have to be a great shooter to score off of double teams. If you double team off of odom and he gets the ball, hes gonna either get to the hole easily or pass it to someone whos gonna be open.

For those of you who have never coached basketball your not understanding the way a double team works.

When you double team, the defeneses assignment is either to recover to your orginal man or rotate. So lets say larry bird doubles off of lamar odom on the strong side of the ball, odom will immediately cut to the basket if the weak side man doesnt recover to help then odom has a layup. If the weak side man does help he has an easy pass to who ever that man was guarding. So Glen rice will still get open looks even if you obviously dont double off of him directly, if anything it will help cover him better if you double off of him directly and have backside rotation so rice will have to make a pass which is one of his weaknesses. Now if instead of odom this cut was made by kwame brown than we have a different story, defense will allow him to try an score and most of the time he wont. This is why having we say hakeem has great help with his supporting cast there is no real weakness. Strickland is such a great passer and ball handler any space he gets its gonna create an easy look also.

The point being if you have good offensive players it makes it very difficult to double team. With the team he has you cannot double Olajuwon too often, and he has proven to torch any defender no matter how good if he isnt doubled.


That was a good point made about shaq getting a rule change because of his dominance.


Still you cannot be considered a top big man if your such a weakness on defense that opposing coaches run plays against you. do you not realize how bad this is. Another is his huge free throw shooting inefficiancy, you could basically take him out of the game in the 4th quarter by fouling him. Shaq could not ever be successfull without a dominant guard to help him.

Hakeem proved he could be dominant with no real help, robinson did to some degree.

Shaqs great fieldgoal percentage is a great plus, but everyone is getting hyped up about how dominating of a force he was and how he could just back his man down and down on them so easily. Basically the range of his shots is what makes people think they were any easier than a 8 foot jump hook by the dream. Comparing shaq going up for a dunk to hakeem taking a 8 foot jump hook is brought even closer together when you factor in shaq will get fouled purposely at least half the time and he will miss at least 1 free throw. Shaq is better offensively, i admit to that, but not far enough to make up for how far back he is on defense.
lol I know how basketball works. The thing is when you double off Odom, you also have strickland on the court as well, so the man who is covering him can guard both of them at the same time and just pick up whichever person who cuts. West will also be playing close to the basket, and Hakeem will be in the post as well, so the lane will already have 5 people in it (ur 2 guys plus my 3 from the double), then you add ur cutter+my guy who rotates and u suddenly have 7 people within a 5-7 foot area.

Of course he will score when I double, it's basketball, it just would be far more effective if he had great 3 pt shooters because not only can they shoot 3's, but most of them can cut to the basket also if they want.

There is a reason most of the great offensive teams of all time past 1990 were great 3pt shooting teams like the Suns, Mavs, Kings etc. Look at USA basketball a few years back, yes I realize its international ball, but it just shows putting a bunch of great players together who aren't good 3pt shooters doesn't work nearly as effectively.

And ur point about Jordan having no 3pt shooters is wrong. Jordan become a very good 3pt shooter the 2nd time around as was Pippen, and Kerr. Kukoc was also pretty good as well, so ur statement is false.

Again i'm sure BigChips will score on my team, just that my team will score more points on his than he would score on mine. If he had a bunch of good/elite 3pt shooters/defenders around Hakeem it would probably be a different story.

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Old 08-20-2008, 10:59 AM   #15517
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion - Let's Get'er Done

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lol I know how basketball works. The thing is when you double off Odom, you also have strickland on the court as well, so the man who is covering him can guard both of them at the same time and just pick up whichever person who cuts. West will also be playing close to the basket, and Hakeem will be in the post as well, so the lane will already have 5 people in it (ur 2 guys plus my 3 from the double), then you add ur cutter+my guy who rotates and u suddenly have 7 people within a 5-7 foot area.

Of course he will score when I double, it's basketball, it just would be far more effective if he had great 3 pt shooters because not only can they shoot 3's, but most of them can cut to the basket also if they want.

There is a reason most of the great offensive teams of all time past 1990 were great 3pt shooting teams like the Suns, Mavs, Kings etc. Look at USA basketball a few years back, yes I realize its international ball, but it just shows putting a bunch of great players together who aren't good 3pt shooters doesn't work nearly as effectively.

And ur point about Jordan having no 3pt shooters is wrong. Jordan become a very good 3pt shooter the 2nd time around as was Pippen, and Kerr. Kukoc was also pretty good as well, so ur statement is false.

Again i'm sure BigChips will score on my team, just that my team will score more points on his than he would score on mine. If he had a bunch of good/elite 3pt shooters/defenders around Hakeem it would probably be a different story.

Alright this is my last response and lets move on from this argument its dragged on too long.


Its true the lane will be a bit clogged at time, but hakeem, odom are great interior passers and wont have trouble moving the ball around in small spaces. D west will not be in the paint when the dream is posting he will be on the opposite side around 20 feet out where his jumper is just as pure as anyone else from that range.

Strickland is too quick, too much handles, and too good of a passer to be a weakness. He will get in the paint if he is given any kind of a head start and he is a great finisher at the rim.

This offense is really good, they are not going to run to hakeem every time down the floor. They can run a bunch of different offensive sets, they have the talent to run any kind of offense. pick an rolls with david west and strickland will be a powerfull combo when you have the supporting cast he does. He can even bring in jalen rose for strickland and have the biggest lineup of anyone out there and will have a mismatch at at least 1 position at all times most likely 3.

He still has 1 pick left if im not wrong and he can always draft another dead on 3 point shooter, its not like there are any shortage of those around.
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Old 08-20-2008, 11:05 AM   #15518
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion - Let's Get'er Done

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Alright this is my last response and lets move on from this argument its dragged on too long.


Its true the lane will be a bit clogged at time, but hakeem, odom are great interior passers and wont have trouble moving the ball around in small spaces. D west will not be in the paint when the dream is posting he will be on the opposite side around 20 feet out where his jumper is just as pure as anyone else from that range.

Strickland is too quick, too much handles, and too good of a passer to be a weakness. He will get in the paint if he is given any kind of a head start and he is a great finisher at the rim.

This offense is really good, they are not going to run to hakeem every time down the floor. They can run a bunch of different offensive sets, they have the talent to run any kind of offense. pick an rolls with david west and strickland will be a powerfull combo when you have the supporting cast he does. He can even bring in jalen rose for strickland and have the biggest lineup of anyone out there and will have a mismatch at at least 1 position at all times most likely 3.

He still has 1 pick left if im not wrong and he can always draft another dead on 3 point shooter, its not like there are any shortage of those around.
The point is no one will be open inside, they will have to kick it back out to either Odom/Strickland whoever did not cut to shoot a jump shot or re-drive into an even more clogged lane than before.

Like I said there is no doubt they will score, everyone will, just that they won't be nearly as effective as at least 10 teams on offense, and they will be even worse on defense. Shooting is a huge part of basketball, especially 3pt shooting, it opens up the offense a ton and makes it a lot harder to double ur star players.

I can also run a zone vs his team too, and just pack the lane in and make sure Rice is always guarded and sag off every other player and make it really tough for them to score inside.

And anytime they want to run the offense not through Hakeem I will be a very very happy opposing team.

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Old 08-20-2008, 12:20 PM   #15519
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion - Let's Get'er Done

Top 10 centers for the format IMO:
1. Shaq
2. Hakeem
3. DRob
4. Timmay
5. Ewing
6. Mutumbo
7. Mourning
8. Dwight Howard
9. Yao
10. Arvidas/Chandler - Arvidas had a superior peak, but Chandler's longevity/durability in this league should counterbalance that IMO.
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Old 08-20-2008, 12:58 PM   #15520
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion - Let's Get'er Done

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Jordan become a very good 3pt shooter the 2nd time around
he abused the short 3 era. Jordan was never a very good shooter from 23'9".
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Old 08-20-2008, 01:05 PM   #15521
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion - Let's Get'er Done

The short 3 era ****s everything up, basketball-ref should star the three point percentages for those years.
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Old 08-20-2008, 01:12 PM   #15522
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion - Let's Get'er Done

yeah pretty much. I've always been conscious and try to factor it in. I basically just make a note of it for guys who couldn't shoot 3s who suddenly could.
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Old 08-20-2008, 01:44 PM   #15523
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion - Let's Get'er Done

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Top 10 centers for the format IMO:
1. Shaq
2. Hakeem
3. DRob
4. Timmay
5. Ewing
6. Mutumbo
7. Mourning
8. Dwight Howard
9. Yao
10. Arvidas/Chandler - Arvidas had a superior peak, but Chandler's longevity/durability in this league should counterbalance that IMO.
It's way too early to say this about Chandler, he's really only had 2 good/above average seasons.

Yao and Dwight can move up this list, they are still mid careers, the reason I went for Dwight over Ewing, Mutombo and Mourning is he has a ton of upside, and I wanted more of a dunker than a shooter than Ewing for my team although I think it's 50/50 if he has a better career than Ewing. Mutombo is pretty meak offensively and I didn't want a 0 offensively as my first pick and Mourning has injury problems.
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Old 08-20-2008, 02:13 PM   #15524
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion - Let's Get'er Done

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Someone tell me how awesome my team will be in season 3-4 or so

Seriously tho, I'd like to hear feedback from someone besides bobbo or xorbie (not that i don't you guys, but you're the only people who have actually given me feedback so far). I didn't know **** about basketball when this started, and I got handed two players and tried to build the best team I could around them. I think it's an interesting challenge / case, both in terms of how I've done so far w/r/t that, and how well this team will actually work together, and do in this league.

(I don't really want to go into my own thoughts about my team until after my last pick.)
I definitely would've swallowed some value and tried to trade Boozer or Dirk since I don't really see how either of them can defend elite SFs that are in this league(or any SFs really). Your drafting after those picks was good but not great imo. I love Calderon, but you definitely did reach for him(not saying thats a bad thing though), and for some reason I remember Maherle being better than his numbers.

I do really like your last 3 picks, and I definitely had my eye on all 3 of them around where you took them.

As a team, I think your offense has the ability to flow very very well. Defensively though, I'll listen to your argument but I think its going to be a tough sell.
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Old 08-20-2008, 02:17 PM   #15525
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion - Let's Get'er Done

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he abused the short 3 era. Jordan was never a very good shooter from 23'9".
God ur so annoying and ur avatar makes it even worse, u ignore like 99 percent of my arguments and always nitpick the smallest things.

Yes that's fine that he abused the short 3 era, I was simply responding to NoPair's response that the Bulls were not good at shooting the 3's the 2nd time around, which they didn't even if it was with the shorter 3pt line.

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