Two Plus Two Publishing LLC Two Plus Two Publishing LLC
 

Go Back   Two Plus Two Poker Forums > >

Sporting Events Discussion centered around sporting events.

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 05-11-2008, 05:04 PM   #1376
muttiah
Carpal \'Tunnel
 
muttiah's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Posts: 24,369
Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion Thread

Quote:
Originally Posted by RUFFNECK View Post
Sellers was pretty terrible, but I think John Koncak is weaker.

What is even more unbelievable Koncak was the 5th overall pick in 85.
Long time ago I saw a documentary on 50 greatest players. Koncak made the list.
muttiah is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-11-2008, 05:05 PM   #1377
kidcolin
Carpal \'Tunnel
 
kidcolin's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: thank god for the hatchery
Posts: 108,763
Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion Thread

Quote:
It's not about naming people, I have no problem with every player being named, it's about discussing players before they are picked. Drafts are supposed to be based on skill (ie. who can draft better), if everyone starts listing off the pro's/con's of each player, and why a certain player is a better fit/player than the one who was just picked, then people who have no clue what they are doing benefit greatly, and people who do get punished. That is not supposed to be how a draft works.
yeah it's not like every player and every pick in every draft ever isn't pre-analyzed like mad
kidcolin is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-11-2008, 05:16 PM   #1378
Shark Doctor
Carpal \'Tunnel
 
Shark Doctor's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: GTA
Posts: 11,739
Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion Thread

Quote:
Originally Posted by kidcolin View Post
yeah it's not like every player and every pick in every draft ever isn't pre-analyzed like mad
I thnk its quite standard to talk about players before theyre drafted - but in the format we have...I kindve see the argument. If you havnt noticed - players that were being heavily discussed were picked up alomost immediately with the nest pick.

Also - a good example of discussing players before they get picked up would be when HighStakesPro decided to "sleep on it" after all the talks influenced his next pick. (He was ready to pick Dwight Howard - but after everyone was saying how bad of a pick that would be...he was afraid to make that pick...and decided to go with Chuck)

I do like discussing the picks-to-be, but you guys understand that it does heavily influence the next pick..right?

I dont know if there is any kindve comprimise we can make here - so - I guess we just have to expect it. Im ok with that, I guess...since theres no way of really getting around it. Personally - I like the grneral discussion more then the actual picking anyway.
Shark Doctor is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-11-2008, 05:22 PM   #1379
KLJ
20k hands/day
 
KLJ's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: Topeka
Posts: 5,701
Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion Thread

Quote:
Am I in or not? I asked before sergsz, Matt and GKA, but didn't get a response....
i'll take the first spot on the unlikely waiting list though, i really don't mind
KLJ is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-11-2008, 05:25 PM   #1380
Franchise 60
deliciously angry
 
Franchise 60's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: Ferocious, isn't he?
Posts: 42,744
Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion Thread

Yea KLJ has been asking to get in for a bit also.
Franchise 60 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-11-2008, 05:25 PM   #1381
kidcolin
Carpal \'Tunnel
 
kidcolin's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: thank god for the hatchery
Posts: 108,763
Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion Thread

Quote:
If you havnt noticed - players that were being heavily discussed were picked up alomost immediately with the nest pick.
umm.. is this even worth addressing? The top 20 or so are pretty standard.
kidcolin is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-11-2008, 05:26 PM   #1382
Shark Doctor
Carpal \'Tunnel
 
Shark Doctor's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: GTA
Posts: 11,739
Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion Thread

Quote:
Originally Posted by KLJ View Post
i'll take the first spot on the unlikely waiting list though, i really don't mind
Im sure someone else is going to pull of a NOAH and just not show up - so...maybe we should complie a waiting list with people who can come in immediately if there are any no-shows.
Shark Doctor is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-11-2008, 05:28 PM   #1383
Franchise 60
deliciously angry
 
Franchise 60's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: Ferocious, isn't he?
Posts: 42,744
Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion Thread

Isn't the main thing that will keep this thread going for months is the discussion? Limiting that is problematic.

People think they are smarter than everyone else and have all of these amazing sleepers, I just don't think its as big of a deal as people are making it out to be.

This thing is going to take forever, and the best part of it is discussing all of the pics, making fun of HSP, and all of that good stuff. As has been noted before, this isn't for money.
Franchise 60 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-11-2008, 05:30 PM   #1384
BobboFitos
Carpal \'Tunnel
 
BobboFitos's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: Cambridge, MA
Posts: 72,764
Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion Thread

im with franchise, the fun in this is making fun of HSP.
BobboFitos is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-11-2008, 05:30 PM   #1385
Assani Fisher
Carpal \'Tunnel
 
Assani Fisher's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2004
Posts: 48,128
Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion Thread

If KLJ has been asking for a while then hes in too. I'd rather go over by one person than shut someone out unfairly. 41 is fine.
Assani Fisher is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-11-2008, 05:32 PM   #1386
kidcolin
Carpal \'Tunnel
 
kidcolin's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: thank god for the hatchery
Posts: 108,763
Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion Thread

Rajon Rondo people mid second or slip to early 3rd?
kidcolin is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-11-2008, 05:32 PM   #1387
Assani Fisher
Carpal \'Tunnel
 
Assani Fisher's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2004
Posts: 48,128
Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion Thread

Quote:
Originally Posted by Franchise 60 View Post
Isn't the main thing that will keep this thread going for months is the discussion? Limiting that is problematic.

People think they are smarter than everyone else and have all of these amazing sleepers, I just don't think its as big of a deal as people are making it out to be.

This thing is going to take forever, and the best part of it is discussing all of the pics, making fun of HSP, and all of that good stuff. As has been noted before, this isn't for money.
Again you're not understanding. Nobody is making the argument that we're giving away sleepers or anything like that. What we are saying is that naming players influences peoples draft picks because if a group of players have been mentioned but they were thinking of picking someone else then they wonder why that someone else wasn't mentioned. People don't want to make a pick and then hear "Wow what a reach." But I would much rather people make tons of "reaches" and go with their own opinions rather than follow the herd. It will make for much better discussion if everyone makes their picks all by themselves with no help.

You say you don't want to limit discussion, but you're actually limiting discussion by doing this. Without people disagreeing there is no discussion.
Assani Fisher is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-11-2008, 05:36 PM   #1388
kidcolin
Carpal \'Tunnel
 
kidcolin's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: thank god for the hatchery
Posts: 108,763
Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion Thread

then tell these pussies to man up
kidcolin is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-11-2008, 05:44 PM   #1389
Shark Doctor
Carpal \'Tunnel
 
Shark Doctor's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: GTA
Posts: 11,739
Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion Thread

Quote:
Originally Posted by kidcolin View Post
then tell these pussies to man up
LOL
Shark Doctor is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-11-2008, 05:49 PM   #1390
Jack of Arcades
Jumbo Jack
 
Jack of Arcades's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: The Bastion
Posts: 23,569
Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion Thread

I like how I thought it was clear who we were talking about with the SF, but it turns out everyone was talking about two different people...
Jack of Arcades is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-11-2008, 05:50 PM   #1391
Franchise 60
deliciously angry
 
Franchise 60's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: Ferocious, isn't he?
Posts: 42,744
Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion Thread

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jack of Arcades View Post
I like how I thought it was clear who we were talking about with the SF, but it turns out everyone was talking about two different people...
Haha yea.
Franchise 60 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-11-2008, 05:50 PM   #1392
BobboFitos
Carpal \'Tunnel
 
BobboFitos's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: Cambridge, MA
Posts: 72,764
Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion Thread

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jack of Arcades View Post
I like how I thought it was clear who we were talking about with the SF, but it turns out everyone was talking about two different people...
wait, 2 different ones? Im talking about the ugly one
BobboFitos is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-11-2008, 05:52 PM   #1393
Franchise 60
deliciously angry
 
Franchise 60's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: Ferocious, isn't he?
Posts: 42,744
Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion Thread

Quote:
Originally Posted by BobboFitos View Post
wait, 2 different ones? Im talking about the ugly one
The ugly one and the dunker.
Franchise 60 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-11-2008, 05:56 PM   #1394
Jack of Arcades
Jumbo Jack
 
Jack of Arcades's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: The Bastion
Posts: 23,569
Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion Thread

Quote:
Originally Posted by BobboFitos View Post
wait, 2 different ones? Im talking about the ugly one
+1
Jack of Arcades is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-11-2008, 06:21 PM   #1395
ggbman
Pooh-Bah
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: trying to emerge from limbo
Posts: 5,894
Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion Thread

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jack of Arcades View Post
Oh, OK, I guess I'm ******ed. I still think Howard has a good shot to never be as good as he was last year and given his body type he might not last as long as guys taken earlier in the draft.
I disagree with this for several reasons...

In general, superstars who have come straight out of high school have continued to improve thier games into their mid twenties and have not peaked at 22-23. This is true of Kobe, KG, Jermaine O'neil, Lebron etc... I actually can't think of someone who came out of high school, had a big impact, and peaked around age 22. Who am I looking over?

As far as Dwight individually, obviously his scoring has improved each year he has been in the league, from 12.0, 15.8, 17.6, to this year where he averaged 20.7. He probably won't average 14 boards per game for his career, but he'll probably be the best or second best rebounder in the NBA for some time to come. His field goal shooting has improved from great to basically unheard of... while there is not room for him to improve his shooting % he will still continue to develope as an offensive player. If he can create more shots for himself by improving his mid range game a bit and add a few tricks in the post, he would be more valuable taking an extra 5 shots a game if that meant dropping his FG% into the low fifties. He likley will not have the weight issues that Shaq has, and he is less of a monster than Yao and far more athletic, so I really think he should be less injury prone at similar ages compared to those guys. I just don't think any of the information out there supports this being the best season of Dwight Howards career...
ggbman is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-11-2008, 06:28 PM   #1396
Franchise 60
deliciously angry
 
Franchise 60's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: Ferocious, isn't he?
Posts: 42,744
Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion Thread

Howard is obviously a stud, I just think people are mistaken when they act like it is a fact that Howard will get all of these new post moves, become a great back to the basket player, improve his passing considerably, etc.

I think the point JOA is making is that Howard is getting everything he can out of his insane athleticism right now. That aspect of his game isn't going to improve. For him to improve as a player he needs to learn/master multiple skills which are essential to his growth as a player.

I'm not claiming he will be unable to do these things or anything along those lines, I just don't think its a given.

This is the main problem I have with the overvaluing of young players in this thing, everyone is expecting a player to continue to improve year after year, and its just not always the case.
Franchise 60 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-11-2008, 06:35 PM   #1397
Jack of Arcades
Jumbo Jack
 
Jack of Arcades's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: The Bastion
Posts: 23,569
Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion Thread

Would you say Kobe has significantly improved from his age 22 season? In fact, his age 22 season is pretty similar to last season, when he was MVP.

Would you say KG significantly improved from his age 23 season? He went from being a 20/11 guy to a 22/12 guy in his MVP year.

Lebron? Well, you know, he's 23. So we don't know yet.

Jermaine O'Neal? JO wasn't a great player until he was 27, so this really isn't that prudent of a comparison.

I'm not saying Dwight Howard won't improve. He has a chance to get a little better, if only because he'll shoot more. Maybe his FT% goes up a little. However, I'm questioning the idea that he is undoubtedly going to improve. I'm also really questioning the idea that he could take a big jump. If Dwight Howard takes a "big jump" and lasts until he's 35, he's going to be hands down the best player of this generation.

IMO, if the consensus is that he's going to continue to get better and stay healthy, he should have been a top 10 pick.
Jack of Arcades is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-11-2008, 06:47 PM   #1398
Shark Doctor
Carpal \'Tunnel
 
Shark Doctor's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: GTA
Posts: 11,739
Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion Thread

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jack of Arcades View Post

IMO, if the consensus is that he's going to continue to get better and stay healthy, he should have been a top 10 pick.
That was my case for picking Chris Paul with the 11th pick...
Shark Doctor is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-11-2008, 06:50 PM   #1399
sergsz
old hand
 
Join Date: Jan 2004
Posts: 1,330
Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion Thread

I think the best value so far is the Mailman pick. I think he is a little underrated from playing in such a small market - 11 straight All-NBA first team selections is an absolutely ridiculous accomplishment. He had a much longer peak than many of the players chosen ahead of him, and it was pretty high too (31/11 in his best year).
sergsz is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-11-2008, 06:53 PM   #1400
Seadood228
Carpal \'Tunnel
 
Seadood228's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2004
Location: Rossmoor, CA
Posts: 30,306
Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion Thread

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jack of Arcades View Post
Would you say Kobe has significantly improved from his age 22 season? In fact, his age 22 season is pretty similar to last season, when he was MVP.

Would you say KG significantly improved from his age 23 season? He went from being a 20/11 guy to a 22/12 guy in his MVP year.

Lebron? Well, you know, he's 23. So we don't know yet.

Jermaine O'Neal? JO wasn't a great player until he was 27, so this really isn't that prudent of a comparison.

I'm not saying Dwight Howard won't improve. He has a chance to get a little better, if only because he'll shoot more. Maybe his FT% goes up a little. However, I'm questioning the idea that he is undoubtedly going to improve. I'm also really questioning the idea that he could take a big jump. If Dwight Howard takes a "big jump" and lasts until he's 35, he's going to be hands down the best player of this generation.

IMO, if the consensus is that he's going to continue to get better and stay healthy, he should have been a top 10 pick.
These are all great points. I'm not sure that he's going to improve statistically, my argument is that he will probably become a little more efficient. Not much, but enough to make him a great pickup where he was drafted. But yeah saying he's a lock for Hakeem/Robinson-like dominance is a bit of a stretch.
Seadood228 is offline   Reply With Quote

Reply
      

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off


Forum Jump


All times are GMT -4. The time now is 12:04 AM.


Powered by vBulletin®
Copyright ©2000 - 2021, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Copyright © 2008-2020, Two Plus Two Interactive