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Old 06-24-2008, 04:44 PM   #13951
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

pretty sure paxson was the last player to receive an all-nba nod
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Old 06-24-2008, 04:45 PM   #13952
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

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pretty sure paxson was the last player to receive an all-nba nod
incorrect IIRC>
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Old 06-24-2008, 04:47 PM   #13953
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

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You guys have no idea how badly I wanna be in Vegas playing bball. Next year hopefully.
Get Epi to stake you imo. He thinks you're better then everyone but me on this forum so I think you have a solid chance of it!
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Old 06-24-2008, 04:53 PM   #13954
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

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Get Epi to stake you imo. He thinks you're better then everyone but me on this forum so I think you have a solid chance of it!
Yeah but I need a way to make money

Oooooooooh sick burn
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Old 06-24-2008, 04:58 PM   #13955
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

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You guys have no idea how badly I wanna be in Vegas playing bball. Next year hopefully.
No doubt. I would have been there too if I didn't blow out my freakin knee two days before I was supposed to leave.

D
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Old 06-24-2008, 04:59 PM   #13956
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

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Epipen, I hate analysis like this man. Its the same sort of "well he just never got rebounds because he played with good rebounders" or "well he just never passed well because he was never asked to" type of thinking.

Its completely unprovable, but it gives you something to stand behind so that no matter what counter-argument I can think of, you'll just say "yeah but his teamates weren't giving him the ball." Anyone could say these sort of things about any player; You happen to use this sort of unprovable line of thinking a lot. Don't you think that just maybe you may have selective memory bias? Hell I know I sure do. I think everyone does. So you remember the times in which he was hot but didn't touch the ball enough(just like you remember McHale's 10 assist game) but you forget the other times when they fed him all game long.
Just because something is unprovable doesn't mean it isn't true.

Anyway playing with better rebounders does have an effect. Look at KG, his rebounders are down because he went to a team with very good rebounders (Perkins, Pierce, Rondo). I don't plan on going through 20+ years of NBA history, but it should be clear to anyone who knows the game that the better rebounders u play with, the less rebounds a very good rebounder will get, and the worse rebounders u play with, the more rebounds a very good rebounder will get.

And of course I have selective memory, but it is def true that the Celtics didn't feed Al Jefferson nearly enough, and i'm pretty sure almost every Celtic fan would agree. There is no way to really prove this, but it doesn't mean its not true.

Last edited by EPiPeN11; 06-24-2008 at 05:20 PM.
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Old 06-24-2008, 05:05 PM   #13957
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

Like the Paxson pick, he was on my short list of BPA

Also, sorry I keep sleeping in and missing basketball :P
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Old 06-24-2008, 05:05 PM   #13958
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

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btw I'm still completely shocked that 2 players are left(neither of whom I will take this round, but one of them I'll definitely take in round 8 if hes there....may even trade up for).
I wonder if were thinking of the same 2 guys.

D
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Old 06-24-2008, 05:07 PM   #13959
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

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Even though I love Billups, Payton is arguably the best non-big man defender in the draft or even ever(personally I'd go Bowen #1, but its arguable). Theres a SIGNIFICANT gap between the two imo.
Maybe it's significant but it's def not even close to as big as the gap between his wing defenders and mine.

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"and I could honestly see myself on a different day siding towards McHale/Perkins over Sheed/Chandler."

Its certainly not a blowout, but I would never ever choose your bigs over his(on defense). Its a clear cut edge for him imo.
McHale made 6 all-defensive first or 2nd teams (and would have made more had he not played on a broken foot), Rasheed and Chandler have both made 0. While I don't think all-defensive teams are the end all, I do think McHale is the best defender of the bunch. And Perkins isn't that much worse on defense than Chandler or Rasheed are either. Overall like I said i'd give him a slight edge but it's veryyyyyyyyyy close and could go either way.

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I think LJ and Nick Anderson are decent, not horrible. Walker is as good as Martin. You do have the edge here for certain, but Raja, while good, isn't in that Payton/Bowen/Artest camp at all imo.
Raja might not be in that camp but he is def really close and easily in the next tier. Deng is also very good as well.

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I would favor interior D over wing D any day, and he clearly(imo) has you there, although it can be argued that its close.

Yeah I'd stick with his team on D.
I think it's very close and my wing+pg D is a pretty decent sized gap between his wing+pg D that it is easily enough to sway the very close bigman battle between us to my defense is better imo.


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I don't think I am. I think you are undervaluing post defenders.

I think wing defense is one of maybe the top 5 or 6 things for winning basketball games. I definitely think its important. But I think post defense is far and away the #1 aspect for winning basketball games.
I think bigman defense (I disagree with post D as there is a lot more to bigman D than just post D), is the most important thing.

But wow 5 or 6? I can't name 5 or 6 things more important than wing D for winning basketball games. Wing d is very important, if your wings keep getting burnt by, it forces ur bigmen to have to play 2v1 all the time and either give up a lot of easy hoops or they get into foul trouble a lot. If you play off them, you give great scorers open jump shots which most can usually make at a high percentage.
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Old 06-24-2008, 05:10 PM   #13960
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

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agreed, your team has been getting underrated/overlooked defensively.
+1 I think Tbach's team is very good and almost made my top 5
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Old 06-24-2008, 05:26 PM   #13961
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

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Can any team in the league match the 80s mustache combo of Ruland and Paxson? I don't think so.
Prob not, but me and xorbie's combo of B. Diddy and Worthy will matchup well in the facial hair championship.

D
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Old 06-24-2008, 06:24 PM   #13962
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

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I didn't cherry pick though. We get the players at age 24. Thats the rule. And I was comparing Alex's team to this year's Magic team. I didn't cherry pick his age 28 season...its just the only season he was with the Magic.
It's somewhat dishonest (I didn't look at the splits until Clark pointed this out) because you didn't mention that he had much higher TS numbers in both previous and later years and implied that he was signifcantly worse as a young player than he is now. When in reality his stats have been consistent throughout his career and that year was likely an abberation.
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Old 06-24-2008, 06:32 PM   #13963
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

*** jim paxson.
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Old 06-24-2008, 06:56 PM   #13964
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

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Originally Posted by Assani Fisher View Post

Even though I love Billups, Payton is arguably the best non-big man defender in the draft or even ever(personally I'd go Bowen #1, but its arguable). Theres a SIGNIFICANT gap between the two imo.

"and I could honestly see myself on a different day siding towards McHale/Perkins over Sheed/Chandler."

Its certainly not a blowout, but I would never ever choose your bigs over his(on defense). Its a clear cut edge for him imo.

I think LJ and Nick Anderson are decent, not horrible. Walker is as good as Martin. You do have the edge here for certain, but Raja, while good, isn't in that Payton/Bowen/Artest camp at all imo.

I would favor interior D over wing D any day, and he clearly(imo) has you there, although it can be argued that its close.

Yeah I'd stick with his team on D.
The one thing I would add is that Martin is clearly the worst defender of this entire group. Antoine is clearly the worst offensive player, but he is a much better defender than Martin.

I think that the disparity in the wing D is being exaggerated by Epip, while the disparity in the post is being down-played.
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Old 06-24-2008, 07:24 PM   #13965
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

people who like the benoit pick and hate dampier don't know what they are talking about. i mean you can def hate them both, but you cant like one here and not like the other.

so with that as a lead in. today i was with some nba "insiders" and with this draft as the catalyst i asked them to pick between two players as if they were owners and they would be getting either guy for his whole career. some are not surprising but some are very - i don't agree with a few of them too.

anyway i thought it would be interesting to share. so according to my "experts":

dampier>benoit - on this one they all laughed first and then answered - they thought it was pretty close though.

igoudala>melo

brand>boozer

paul>deron

isiah>paul

isiah>stockton

dumars and KJ - split vote

ok here is the WTF one. and they brought it up not me.

in a unanimous decision they told me that odom>marion.
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Old 06-24-2008, 07:39 PM   #13966
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

the isiah love is ridiculous, and so is odom.
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Old 06-24-2008, 07:40 PM   #13967
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

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people who like the benoit pick and hate dampier don't know what they are talking about. i mean you can def hate them both, but you cant like one here and not like the other.
Why? Just take a look at their TS%, Benjamin's was very high in his immediate post-23 years at a medium usage, while Dampier didn't start shooting well until his later years when he became a low usage player. In his prime years, when he had a higher usage, he was a horrific shooter, I'm talking sub-Antoine Walker level bad for the first three years in this league before dramatically improving. Benoit is the opposite, he starts off well and then slips off, but his trough isn't nearly as low. Rebounding wise, it's the same deal. Honestly, it's like Dampier is two different players, he sucks until he is 27 or 28 and then suddenly becomes a much more efficient scorer and a much better rebounder.
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Old 06-24-2008, 07:41 PM   #13968
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

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the isiah love is ridiculous, and so is odom.
pretty much. I agree with the rest.
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Old 06-24-2008, 07:45 PM   #13969
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

Iguodala over Melo is just silly. I can't believe how underrated he is here.

Edit- unless you dislike 23 year olds who score 25+ ppg at a TS% above 55% along with grabbing 6 boards a game for his career and rarely miss time. Seriously, I think Melo is one of the best scorers I've ever seen and yet people constantly hate on him.
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Old 06-24-2008, 07:46 PM   #13970
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

I love how BigCat hasn't even shown up yet.
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Old 06-24-2008, 07:51 PM   #13971
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

Bobbo and anyone else in Vegas who wants to play basketball:


https://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/sh...36#post4796036
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Old 06-24-2008, 07:57 PM   #13972
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

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Originally Posted by EPiPeN11 View Post
Just because something is unprovable doesn't mean it isn't true.

Anyway playing with better rebounders does have an effect. Look at KG, his rebounders are down because he went to a team with very good rebounders (Perkins, Pierce, Rondo). I don't plan on going through 20+ years of NBA history, but it should be clear to anyone who knows the game that the better rebounders u play with, the less rebounds a very good rebounder will get, and the worse rebounders u play with, the more rebounds a very good rebounder will get.

And of course I have selective memory, but it is def true that the Celtics didn't feed Al Jefferson nearly enough, and i'm pretty sure almost every Celtic fan would agree. There is no way to really prove this, but it doesn't mean its not true.

The problem is that you seem to be claiming these "unprovable truths" about all your players or about anyone you're defending(like AJ here). And since I can't disprove or prove them it makes our debate pointless.
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Old 06-24-2008, 07:57 PM   #13973
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

wrt Melo.. I want to see if he keeps up these kinds of rebounding #s. My biggest knock on him is that he's JUST a scorer. Can't distribute for ****, and was pretty mediocre on the glass, and was woeful on defense. This past season he started hitting the boards a bit harder and developed a respectful 3 ball. If that keeps up I'm much higher on him.
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Old 06-24-2008, 08:00 PM   #13974
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

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Originally Posted by lapoker17 View Post
people who like the benoit pick and hate dampier don't know what they are talking about. i mean you can def hate them both, but you cant like one here and not like the other.

so with that as a lead in. today i was with some nba "insiders" and with this draft as the catalyst i asked them to pick between two players as if they were owners and they would be getting either guy for his whole career. some are not surprising but some are very - i don't agree with a few of them too.

anyway i thought it would be interesting to share. so according to my "experts":

dampier>benoit - on this one they all laughed first and then answered - they thought it was pretty close though.

igoudala>melo

brand>boozer

paul>deron

isiah>paul

isiah>stockton

dumars and KJ - split vote

ok here is the WTF one. and they brought it up not me.

in a unanimous decision they told me that odom>marion.
So how did you run into Isiah?
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Old 06-24-2008, 08:02 PM   #13975
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

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Originally Posted by lapoker17 View Post
people who like the benoit pick and hate dampier don't know what they are talking about. i mean you can def hate them both, but you cant like one here and not like the other.

so with that as a lead in. today i was with some nba "insiders" and with this draft as the catalyst i asked them to pick between two players as if they were owners and they would be getting either guy for his whole career. some are not surprising but some are very - i don't agree with a few of them too.

anyway i thought it would be interesting to share. so according to my "experts":

dampier>benoit - on this one they all laughed first and then answered - they thought it was pretty close though.

igoudala>melo

brand>boozer

paul>deron

isiah>paul

isiah>stockton

dumars and KJ - split vote

ok here is the WTF one. and they brought it up not me.

in a unanimous decision they told me that odom>marion.
wtf does "insiders" mean? And LOL@ Isiah over Paul and especially Stockton.
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