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Old 06-24-2008, 02:07 PM   #13901
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

Hey guys, Im here, but only just. Quite damn ill atm (lets use that as an excuse if this pick comes out bad).

I would once again like to say say screw you to Clark for picking Dell Curry. My team needed the 3 baqll so bad and I really thought he'd fall to me. However Im thinking of taking another guard for the 3 ball now as well but realising I probably need frontcourt help more. Damn. Also annoyed Xman and Jeff Malone got picked.

Also just realised I never got a sleepy floyd write up done, Ill get on that.
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Old 06-24-2008, 02:08 PM   #13902
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

I saw some lists about best offenses and defenses in the league, and was surprised to see my team not on the defensive ones. I'm not sure why, but if you look at all of my guys stats defensively they're very good:

Sabonis averaged 1.9 (steals + blocks) per game in only 24 mpg. This doesn't even show that his best defensive attribute was his post defense. He averaged almost 11 rebounds/per 36 in his career.

Kemp also averaged between 1-2 blocks and 1-2 steals per game during his post-24 career, until he turned 30, and was a prolific rebounder. In addition, he was the a big part of the reason that those Sonics teams in the 90's were so good defensively that were consistently top 10 (and got way higher too) until SURPRISE Kemp left.

Hill before his injury posted some insane DWS and DRtg numbers. I'm not huge on these numbers, but we all know how quick Hill was, and he was 6'8.

Posey is a very good defender right now. When we debated it earlier, no one rated him lower than 3rd tier. Personally, I think he's second tier, which is still good.

Doc picked up over 2 steals per game and has solid DWS and DRtg numbers on some highly rated defensive teams.



I realize that DWS and DRtg are pretty crappy stats, but if you look at all 5 of my starters, they all were key pieces on some very good defenses. I don't think of any of them as "elite" but when you put together 5 guys who are going to play anywhere from "good" to "very good" defense, with heights of (6'4, 6'8, 6'8, 6'10, and 7'3) and I think that's going to be a damn good defense.
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Old 06-24-2008, 02:08 PM   #13903
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

Honestly, if there's a way we can draft a couple more wing players Stack is going to get about 5 minutes/game and hopefully he will demand a trade in which we get a hot cheerleader and an 8th round pick in the 2011 MLB draft. He is completely useless in this format and particularly useless on this team.
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Old 06-24-2008, 02:08 PM   #13904
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

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Originally Posted by EPiPeN11 View Post
Yes of course, and that should be factored in as well.



I didn't watch many Twolves games, but I did watch all the Celtics games when Al blew up 2 years. A lot of times, his teammates ignored him for long stretches when they should have been feeding him the ball. Also say if Al missed 2 straight buckets they would instantly go away from him for a long time, instead of sticking with their clearly best offensive threat (Pierce was hurt). Heck it got so bad sometimes Doc had to demand that the team feed Al the ball in the post during timeouts. I have a strong feeling in Minny with a lot of young teammates like he had in Boston, it was the same way.

Meanwhile I don't watch many Magic games, but when they play the Celtics it seems like they run the pick and roll play like 90% of the time (this isn't even an exageration).

Epipen, I hate analysis like this man. Its the same sort of "well he just never got rebounds because he played with good rebounders" or "well he just never passed well because he was never asked to" type of thinking.

Its completely unprovable, but it gives you something to stand behind so that no matter what counter-argument I can think of, you'll just say "yeah but his teamates weren't giving him the ball." Anyone could say these sort of things about any player; You happen to use this sort of unprovable line of thinking a lot. Don't you think that just maybe you may have selective memory bias? Hell I know I sure do. I think everyone does. So you remember the times in which he was hot but didn't touch the ball enough(just like you remember McHale's 10 assist game) but you forget the other times when they fed him all game long.
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Old 06-24-2008, 02:12 PM   #13905
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

I don't disagree with epipen, but I think that if that were teh way the offense were designed, you could build Al Jefferson's ppg up to like 30/game without effecting his TS%. That's just the way he is. With D12, you absolutely could not get him 30/game without effecting both his TO/game massively, and dropping his TS%.
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Old 06-24-2008, 02:12 PM   #13906
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

I hate stack so much I hope he never sees PT and I would likely rather just drop him and take another player after the 10th round.

D
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Old 06-24-2008, 02:14 PM   #13907
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

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Originally Posted by EPiPeN11 View Post
Ok but that's kinda misleading, since say if he improves the ppg one by a drastic margin (not saying he will) but every other stat stayed the same, he would have improved a lot, yet only "improved" in 1 catagory. Infact i'd take Deng scoring 35 ppg (obv will never happen, just hypothetical) with the exact same stats across the board, than him slightly improving in every catagory.
Fair point, although I'd obviously be willing to admit his improvement if he did this.


Quote:
I disagree with Cowboy.

Cowboy has 3 very good/elite defenders, Payton, Rasheed, and Chandler. Then he has 3 average defenders in LJ, Nick Anderson, and Walker.

I think Rasheed/Chandler are better on defense than McHale and Perkins but it's very close and I could honestly see myself on a different day siding towards McHale/Perkins over Sheed/Chandler. I also think Payton is better than Billups. But Raja+Deng+Martin is a pretty massive edge over LJ+Nick Anderson and Walker imo.
Even though I love Billups, Payton is arguably the best non-big man defender in the draft or even ever(personally I'd go Bowen #1, but its arguable). Theres a SIGNIFICANT gap between the two imo.

"and I could honestly see myself on a different day siding towards McHale/Perkins over Sheed/Chandler."

Its certainly not a blowout, but I would never ever choose your bigs over his(on defense). Its a clear cut edge for him imo.


I think LJ and Nick Anderson are decent, not horrible. Walker is as good as Martin. You do have the edge here for certain, but Raja, while good, isn't in that Payton/Bowen/Artest camp at all imo.

I would favor interior D over wing D any day, and he clearly(imo) has you there, although it can be argued that its close.

Yeah I'd stick with his team on D.


Quote:
I also think you and others are drastically undervaluing wing defenders, no way the Spurs are even close to the defensive team that they have been without Bowen, no way the Bulls are even close to the defensive team they were without Jordan or Pippen, no way the Pistons are close to the defensive team they were without Prince, Rockets without Battier etc.
I don't think I am. I think you are undervaluing post defenders.

I think wing defense is one of maybe the top 5 or 6 things for winning basketball games. I definitely think its important. But I think post defense is far and away the #1 aspect for winning basketball games.

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As for sergz, I will conceed his team is better on D than mine, but it's very close
agreed

Quote:
I said it already was the least important (never said otherwise). However it is still very important, teams with very good/great PG defenders are a good sized better than if they didn't have them. Players like Payton, Kidd, Billups, Harris etc. improve their teams defense by a very good amount when they are in the game. There are even more elite PG's in this league than in the real NBA, so PG defense is even more important.
fair enough
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Old 06-24-2008, 02:17 PM   #13908
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

Id also like to point out that if he hadnt been taking, Id probably be only just considering Al Horford now. Random hate I know, but just shocking how early he was taken.
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Old 06-24-2008, 02:18 PM   #13909
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

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Originally Posted by EPiPeN11 View Post
You have Ben Wallace too high, his post D is a lot worse than his help D. Peja was obv a joke. Regardless i'd move Hakeem up to 3, put Ben at 4, I also think KG should be behind Mourning, Ewing (who should both be ahead of Rodman as well imo) and possibly Rodman too although i'd prob take KG over Rodman. The funny thing is the difference between #10 and #1 on that list isn't even that large.
Yeah, I could definitely admit that I'm wrong in a lot of cases.

You're probably right about Rodman(but he gains value from being about to defend the wings too....but we're not measuring that here, so hes a better overall defender than shown on this list).

I think you underrate KG's D still, but I think we've agreed to disagree on this past year's Celtics team and how responsible KG is for their defensive turnaround.

Peja was no a joke at all, lol.

Yeah #1 and #10 are close, but I do think that Duncan and Mutombo are in tier #1 by themselves.
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Old 06-24-2008, 02:22 PM   #13910
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

Stack is actually a good passer, he just shoots so damn much that no one notices.

D
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Old 06-24-2008, 02:37 PM   #13911
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

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Anyone who watched a lot of ball in early to mid 90s want to give feedback on one player I see still available?
Sure, PM me.
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Old 06-24-2008, 02:42 PM   #13912
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

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Who would you rank Shaq over? Isn't his pick n roll defense pretty damn bad? I did think about him though, and as I said, I don't feel very confident and these were just off the top of my head. So make an argument and I'll listen.


BTW just woke up and saw your text...gotta go play WSOP so no basketball for me today.
GL today, was going to play it but got back from bball and i feel sick.

about Shaq, his PNR defense is actually really good. you're thinking about 35 yr old shaq that doesn't move that well; 25 yr old shaq he was SO quick, SO strong, SO tall, etc. This is a guy that has made 3 all defensive teams so it's not like he hasn't won awards. 101 career DRtg is VVV good; career 2.4 bpg/7.7 drpg/only 3.5 pfpg... I mean, I guess he's not on the same level as Ewing defensively, but he's likely the 10th best.
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Old 06-24-2008, 02:46 PM   #13913
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

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Hey guys, Im here, but only just. Quite damn ill atm (lets use that as an excuse if this pick comes out bad).

I would once again like to say say screw you to Clark for picking Dell Curry. My team needed the 3 baqll so bad and I really thought he'd fall to me. However Im thinking of taking another guard for the 3 ball now as well but realising I probably need frontcourt help more. Damn. Also annoyed Xman and Jeff Malone got picked.

Also just realised I never got a sleepy floyd write up done, Ill get on that.
YAY AC!
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Old 06-24-2008, 02:49 PM   #13914
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

I dont know whether its the illness or what but I feel like searching through b-ref Im gonna have to pick a player Im distinctly unhappy about. Im sure a lot of players are flying over my head at this moment.
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Old 06-24-2008, 02:50 PM   #13915
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

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I hate stack so much I hope he never sees PT and I would likely rather just drop him and take another player after the 10th round.

D
I'll trade you Andrew Toney and Derrick Coleman for Chris Bosh and Jerry Stackhouse.
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Old 06-24-2008, 02:51 PM   #13916
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

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Id also like to point out that if he hadnt been taking, Id probably be only just considering Al Horford now. Random hate I know, but just shocking how early he was taken.
lol, yeah. although he'd be good value right now.
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Old 06-24-2008, 02:52 PM   #13917
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

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I'll trade you Andrew Toney and Derrick Coleman for Chris Bosh and Jerry Stackhouse.
For the record I love Andrew Toney, but being able to upgrade from DC to Bosh would be worth having a useless Stackhouse getting 0 mpg.
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Old 06-24-2008, 02:54 PM   #13918
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

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I'll trade you Andrew Toney and Derrick Coleman for Chris Bosh and Jerry Stackhouse.
PLs, no chance. I watched basketball in the 90s bobbo, I aint falling for the siren song that is DC. Plus, Bosh is the shiznit, yo.

D
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Old 06-24-2008, 02:57 PM   #13919
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

I too love Toney, for the record.

D
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Old 06-24-2008, 03:04 PM   #13920
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

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Originally Posted by Assani Fisher View Post
And I'd still love to see someone rank the top 10 defensive big men. Off the top of my head I'd go:

1. Dikembe Mutombo
2. Tim Duncan
3. Ben Wallace
4. David Robinson
5. Hakeem Olajuwon
6. Peja Stojakovic
7. Kevin Garnett
8. Dennis Rodman
9. Alonzo Mourning
10. Patrick Ewing
if by peja stojakovic you mean mark eaton, then ok. eaton made 5 straight all defensive teams (three 1st, two DPoY), has a 100 Drtg, career leader in BPG (as well as single season record, and was insanely durable.

garnett should be higher (although in terms of post defense he's good around 7 or maybe lower). mourning was always very good, but only got great later in his career. i bump him for shaq or camby
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Old 06-24-2008, 03:08 PM   #13921
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

haha, Dampier. There are better Cs available, just gotta know where to look.
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Old 06-24-2008, 03:09 PM   #13922
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

+1
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Old 06-24-2008, 03:10 PM   #13923
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

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haha, Dampier. There are better Cs available, just gotta know where to look.
Like I said, Im ill (majorly weak excuse) so relied heavily on a quick scan of b-ref which threw up Dampier and another awful centre who played for one of Dampiers teams. Not happy but **** it I need sleep.

Edit: I still maintain everything I said in my writeup, just dont like the guy and am sure Im missing gems Im gonna kick myself for.
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Old 06-24-2008, 03:10 PM   #13924
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

I was wondering when Ericka would go. Not bad, imo.
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Old 06-24-2008, 03:21 PM   #13925
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

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along with only scoring 17/game and having 3.9 TO/game. and also, you CANNOT use big al's stats previous to the 2nd half last year because doc never played him (IMO this is where most of my doc hatred came from, because celtics fans knew he was special after he torched jermaine oneal in a playoff game (doesn't really show in the bball-ref since doc benched him for the rest of that series..).
He played 32 min/g pre-all star break last year. All these Celtics homers and their insane use of logic is tilting me so hard.
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