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Old 06-24-2008, 10:32 AM   #13876
D104
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

Also, I plan on posting links to hype our other players, since BC never did.

Baron:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N3XyzQvtlZ4
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Old 06-24-2008, 10:36 AM   #13877
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

Also,

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RJYmxR86zhk

you KNOW what number 1 is! Assani, I'm lookin at you.

D
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Old 06-24-2008, 11:23 AM   #13878
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

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Originally Posted by Assani Fisher View Post
And sometimes the Timberwolves try to run a play for AJ and can't get him a shot(either because they denied ball entry or double teamed when it got there and forced a kick out) and that may result in a lower % shot.
Yes of course, and that should be factored in as well.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Assani Fisher View Post
Counting each FT as 1/2 of a shot, the Timberwolves are able to get Al 20.0 shots per game. The Magic are able to get Howard 17.4 shots per game. So basically theres 2 or 3 possession each game where Al is able to take a shot when the Magic would've had to have gone elsewhere due to Howard not being able to get a shot.
I didn't watch many Twolves games, but I did watch all the Celtics games when Al blew up 2 years. A lot of times, his teammates ignored him for long stretches when they should have been feeding him the ball. Also say if Al missed 2 straight buckets they would instantly go away from him for a long time, instead of sticking with their clearly best offensive threat (Pierce was hurt). Heck it got so bad sometimes Doc had to demand that the team feed Al the ball in the post during timeouts. I have a strong feeling in Minny with a lot of young teammates like he had in Boston, it was the same way.

Meanwhile I don't watch many Magic games, but when they play the Celtics it seems like they run the pick and roll play like 90% of the time (this isn't even an exageration).

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Old 06-24-2008, 11:33 AM   #13879
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

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Originally Posted by Assani Fisher View Post
fair enough.



I think you misunderstood me. I listed 6 categories(ppg, rpg, apg, spg, bpg, TS%) and I said that Deng would never top 5/6 of his year 3 totals in any one year. In other words, I'm saying he won't improve. Now maybe you could argue that topping 4/6 would be an improvement, and I'd guess I'd agree there....but even still I"m not certain he'll do that. I especially don't see him touching the TS% one.
Ok but that's kinda misleading, since say if he improves the ppg one by a drastic margin (not saying he will) but every other stat stayed the same, he would have improved a lot, yet only "improved" in 1 catagory. Infact i'd take Deng scoring 35 ppg (obv will never happen, just hypothetical) with the exact same stats across the board, than him slightly improving in every catagory.

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So why do you think that I think there are more than 3 or 4 teams better than yours? I havn't looked at the other rosters completely, so I don't know either way actually. Here I'll look now....

I think the following teams are better than you on D for sure:

Mine
Seadood
Clark
cowboy2579
sergsz
I disagree with Cowboy.

Cowboy has 3 very good/elite defenders, Payton, Rasheed, and Chandler. Then he has 3 average defenders in LJ, Nick Anderson, and Walker.

I think Rasheed/Chandler are better on defense than McHale and Perkins but it's very close and I could honestly see myself on a different day siding towards McHale/Perkins over Sheed/Chandler. I also think Payton is better than Billups. But Raja+Deng+Martin is a pretty massive edge over LJ+Nick Anderson and Walker imo.

As for sergz, I will conceed his team is better on D than mine, but it's very close. And while I think I am now in the top 5 instead of top 4, I think the gap between me and the best defensive team in this league is pretty small.

I also think you and others are drastically undervaluing wing defenders, no way the Spurs are even close to the defensive team that they have been without Bowen, no way the Bulls are even close to the defensive team they were without Jordan or Pippen, no way the Pistons are close to the defensive team they were without Prince, Rockets without Battier etc.


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Its the least important for 3 reasons:

1. Its not a post defense spot, which means its not vital for help defense against penetration(the main reason post defense is more important than perimeter defense).

2. There are more stud wing scorers that need to be guarded than stud PG scorers.

3. Good defensive wings like Bowen can switch onto star PGs like Bowen does with Nash and Paul at times. It doesn't work the other way around due to size issues.
I said it already was the least important (never said otherwise). However it is still very important, teams with very good/great PG defenders are a good sized better than if they didn't have them. Players like Payton, Kidd, Billups, Harris etc. improve their teams defense by a very good amount when they are in the game. There are even more elite PG's in this league than in the real NBA, so PG defense is even more important.



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Originally Posted by Assani Fisher View Post
They are important for sure, but they aren't nearly as important imo. I think post defense(both one-on-one and helpside) is the single most important aspect of winning basketball in fact.
I don't think nearly as important, but if I was rating post/help defense (you also forgot pick and roll D for a bigman which is just as important as the 2 you listed above, heck in the real NBA it might be the MOST important out of those 3 since most teams run the pick and roll as their main play) i'd rate bigman D a 10, Wing D an 8, and PG D a 6.5 for the NBA, however for this league i'd rank it bigman D 10, Wing D 8.5, and PG D 7.5 due to there being so many more elite Wing/PG players than in the NBA.

Last edited by EPiPeN11; 06-24-2008 at 12:00 PM.
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Old 06-24-2008, 11:34 AM   #13880
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

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Originally Posted by Assani Fisher View Post
Oh yea, I forgot I wanted to ask this to spark some discussion:

Assume for a second that the rules are changed to: You get the player at any age and from that age forward you are guaranteed 10 years of full 82 games/season health. After that they can still continue to play but its not guaranteed. Obviously I'm most interested in seeing where guys like Hill, Penny, Moncrief rank now....so where would you rank these guys and the other injury prone guys under this rule?




And I'd still love to see someone rank the top 10 defensive big men. Off the top of my head I'd go:

1. Dikembe Mutombo
2. Tim Duncan
3. Ben Wallace
4. David Robinson
5. Hakeem Olajuwon
6. Peja Stojakovic
7. Kevin Garnett
8. Dennis Rodman
9. Alonzo Mourning
10. Patrick Ewing



Thoughts on that?
You have Ben Wallace too high, his post D is a lot worse than his help D. Peja was obv a joke. Regardless i'd move Hakeem up to 3, put Ben at 4, I also think KG should be behind Mourning, Ewing (who should both be ahead of Rodman as well imo) and possibly Rodman too although i'd prob take KG over Rodman. The funny thing is the difference between #10 and #1 on that list isn't even that large.

Last edited by EPiPeN11; 06-24-2008 at 11:41 AM.
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Old 06-24-2008, 11:35 AM   #13881
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

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Originally Posted by BobboFitos View Post
I'm going to "+1" this, because I think it's not even close D12 vs Big Al in terms of "better player," because Big Al is at best an average defender and likely a tiny bit below avg whereas D12 is an anchor. But offensively, it's close, but I think Big Al is the better piece on almost any conceivable offense.
Pick and Roll offense Dwight >>>> Big Al and the pick and roll is by far the most common play in the NBA (and most effective)
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Old 06-24-2008, 11:39 AM   #13882
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

Who cares if he gets a ton of points from the pick and roll? He shoots at a high efficiency with a high usage, I don't care if he does it by exclusively shooting half court sky hooks, it's all worth the same. His point guard is currently undrafted, so it's not like you can even make the argument that it's his point guard that's making him good, ala Nash/Amare. His turnovers are a problem that aren't captured by efficiency and usage, so if you want to attack something, attack that, but saying that you have to factor in the times that he doesn't shoot on the pick and roll (we do, it's called usage rate) or making up another hypothetical argument (if only his teammates would pass him the ball more, he'd have a 50% usage and a high efficiency!), sorry, that's not going to work.
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Old 06-24-2008, 11:42 AM   #13883
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

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Originally Posted by EPiPeN11 View Post
Pick and Roll offense Dwight >>>> Big Al and the pick and roll is by far the most common play in the NBA (and most effective)
Although I agree with this entirely, so maybe I'm misinterpreting your earlier post.
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Old 06-24-2008, 11:47 AM   #13884
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

Hardaway >>>>> Undrafted PGs who feed D12
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Old 06-24-2008, 11:52 AM   #13885
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

Both Dudd/Cap yes his PG is undrafted, and yes I didn't watch many Magic games, but I am pretty sure Hedo runs the pick and roll play with Howard more than their PG does.

Regardless I agree he will obv be more effective here than on the Magic.
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Old 06-24-2008, 12:38 PM   #13886
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

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He killed mine.

I like DWesley as a pick. Benoit is one of those guys that look better on paper than their reputation.
I was a little surprised with his stats as well, tbh. Very comprable stats to Z. Ilgauskas. The thing about Benjamin that I found pleasantly surprising was that he has very good blk numbers and is not a foul machine. Career of 3.8 fouls per 36 mins is Top 20 for centers in this draft. His TOV% is not v good at all, but he will have the lowest usage % on our team, so I don't think it will be too big of an issue. His AST% is also decent for a center, so he's not a black hole on offense either.

D
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Old 06-24-2008, 12:39 PM   #13887
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

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AJ averaged 0.4 more offensive rebounds than Dwight this year.



And please stop looking at just FGA. Thats intellectually dishonest and you know it. Of course people who shy away from contact are going to have less FGAs on average than people who take it because when you get fouled and miss the shot, you don't get credit for a FGA. At the very least compare FGA + (FTA x 0.5). Thats a much better measuring stick.
assani,

that's EXACTLY what i did and explained earlier, even though it then overrates Dwight's shot attempts. So read the whole thread carefully and stop being an asshat.

And I never said anything about Dwight being a better offensive rebounder. I'm just stating a clear fact: a large part of Dwight's value comes from his impressive offensive rebound rate. A large part of why TS% overrates him is because he turns it over like mad.
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Old 06-24-2008, 01:13 PM   #13888
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

Anyone who watched a lot of ball in early to mid 90s want to give feedback on one player I see still available?
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Old 06-24-2008, 01:16 PM   #13889
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

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Anyone who watched a lot of ball in early to mid 90s want to give feedback on one player I see still available?
Sure, PM me.
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Old 06-24-2008, 01:21 PM   #13890
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

I'll just do one write up.

With a core of Bosh, Worthy and Davis, this team has three very athletic players who all force a high number of turnovers for their position and all can run the court, pass fairly well for their position and finish well at the basket. It's pretty clear that this lends itself to a much better version of the modern day GSW. Reggie Lewis adds another dynamic scorer who will fit in well with this team because he was also an excellent harassing defender who could finish at the basket on the other end. At this point, the only things lacking on this team are a legitimate 3pt shooter and a true Center, the lack of which we have seen really hurts the GSW in certain match ups and is something you especially can't get away with in this league. David Wesley and Benoit Benjamin address these needs and bring exactly what we need to the table. I'll give a quick summary of each player and then talk about how they fit into our team.

David Wesley is a good defensive PG who got a lot of steals at his peak. For the years we are looking at (our team's window is basically 24-32, since Worthy and Benoit are done around then, and obviously Reggie Lewis has passed on by now), he's getting 1.5+ per game. He was a good but not great 3pt shooter (his early years that are very high are when the 3pt line was moved in, so it's fair to say he's going to be ~.360 in this league). He was never a very efficient scorer, but he was not a chucker either and was simply on a lot of bad to middling offensive teams. On this team he will be the 4th option on offense and primarily a 3pt shooter who can penetrate as well if the defense is out of position. He was always pretty good at getting to the line for a PG although his FT shooting of .78 is a little disappointing. Wesley also turns the ball over a little much, but maintained >2:1 assists:TO ratio so he wasn't terrible. I feel that on this team Wesley will be a lot more efficient and about as productive as he was in real life, and that's not something I argue for everyone (Baron and Stack will probably be about as inefficient).

Benoit Benjamin was a big dude in the middle. Unfortunately we miss his 21-23 seasons in which he average 2.6, 2.6 and 3.4 blocks/game. Thankfully, at 24 he still average 2.8, and at 25, he got 2.6! After that he falls off, missing almost the entire age 28 season. Of course we can't know how things will play out in this league, but it's safe to say he will probably miss large chunks of time here or there but will generally stay pretty healthy. He came back for his age 29 season and played a good number of games through his age 31 season, after which he was basically done. Besides his shot blocking, Benoit brings a big body in the middle who can rebound pretty well (his DRB% is consistently 23+ and he was #19 of all time, and #64 over all rebounding) and also scores somewhat efficiently when given the ball since he was a good FT shooter for his size and had a bit of touch.

Now on to how the team fits at this point. At this point our team is prepared to run two different starting line ups out there:

David Wesley
Baron Davis
Reggie Lewis
James Worthy
Chris Bosh

This is the run and run and run and gun line up. I know, I know, Wesley and Davis don't play that well together. But I think it works well on this team, much like the backcourt of Baron and Monta that GS runs. Worthy played a lot like a PF and at 6'9"/225 he's big enough to hang with most of the PF in this league and presents a big match up problem on the other side because he was quick in the post and could also take guys off the dribble. Baron Davis is strong and big enough to cover most SG. Lewis is tall and long and can play either the 3 or 2.

More importantly, everyone on this line up averages 1+ steal per game, and our two guards average 4+ together. At 3-5 we also get 1+ blocks/game from everyone. This team will be forcing a lot of TO and then will get running. Wesley and Baron are both capable of running the break with the ball in their hands, and everyone on this line up can run, pass and finish. This will be the best fast break team in the league, and we plan on getting into that fast break early and often. In the half court game, we get good floor spacing. Whoever our coach is will hopefully tell Baron to shoot less 3s and give that role to Wesley. Bosh and Worthy can both play well in the post but both can also pick up the ball on the wing and blow by their guy so there will be no problem cluttering the lane. This leaves room for Reggie Lewis, Baron Davis and David Wesley to take their guy off the dribble. Again, everyone on this team can pass and are high IQ players who can see the floor well, so we are going to get a lot of easy buckets even in the half court game. Defensively we will be below average but force a lot of TO and can hang somewhat with some teams.

Our other line up will be:

David Wesley
Jerry Stackhouse
Reggie Lewis/Worthy
Chris Bosh/Backup PF
Benoit Benjamin

This is a line up we will play for 15-25 minutes per game, depending on match up (which is about how long Benoit will play, since we don't want him when we have our runners out there, Stack will probably get minutes with the other line up). This line up is more like the modern day Dallas Mavericks. Obviously Bosh is no Dirk, but he can stretch the floor, and everyone else can create their own shot well enough (besides Benoit). Stack is going to be Stack, but I (or the coach) is going to instruct him to really only shoot so much when Bosh and Worthy are off the court, and then him and Reggie Lewis are going to be our primary offense so it's not as horrible to get such ineffective offense for short stretches.

The real strength and purpose of this line up is simply to grind out some minutes and play good defense. At all positions except the 2, this team average to good defense (I know Lewis/Worthy stats don't look good but DRtg sucks, these guys will be able to play swarming, gambling D that they are both good for), and with Bosh and Benoit inside it will be very tough for other teams to get much going inside at all (and whoever our backup PF is he will need to be able to play D and block shots). Lewis and Worthy both bring a lot of length and the ability to get steals and blocks from the 3 spot, and even Stack can occasionally get a steal and isn't a Peja on defense. This team rebounds very well defensively, still forces a high number of turnovers, blocks shots and plays reasonable 1v1 defense. The offense won't be as flashy, as effective or as efficient but we still have two playmakers on the court at all times and people at various positions who can space the floor pretty well so that the 1on1 players have room to operate. Benoit will function primarily as a guy who just sets screens for Reggie Lewis/Stackhouse to run through and then rolls to the basket.

Last edited by TheQuietAnarchist; 06-24-2008 at 01:33 PM. Reason: grammar
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Old 06-24-2008, 01:28 PM   #13891
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

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Peja, lol, nice one.

No Shaq??
Who would you rank Shaq over? Isn't his pick n roll defense pretty damn bad? I did think about him though, and as I said, I don't feel very confident and these were just off the top of my head. So make an argument and I'll listen.


BTW just woke up and saw your text...gotta go play WSOP so no basketball for me today.
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Old 06-24-2008, 01:31 PM   #13892
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

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Love the Benjamin pick. Almost took him instead of Curry.



Holy cherry picking. This is why people get upset with you.

Lewis TS%
20- 54.3%
21 - 58.7%
22 - 56.4%
23 - 53.7%
24 - 52.7%
25 - 57.1%
26 - 58.5%
27 - 58.7%
28 - 59.1%

So you basically take the worst season in his career and compare it to his best (and his best isn't much of an anomaly, similar to his 21yo season, and the first time there was actually an inside presense to help free him up).
I didn't cherry pick though. We get the players at age 24. Thats the rule. And I was comparing Alex's team to this year's Magic team. I didn't cherry pick his age 28 season...its just the only season he was with the Magic.
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Old 06-24-2008, 01:31 PM   #13893
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

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I'm confused by this......you say that as if its a bad thing!

When the defenses key on Howard leaving the PG with more space to make a play for himself, THATS A GOOD THING THAT HOWARD ACCOMPLISHED.

So if Howard has a better TS% and he accomplishes this then thats even more reason why he should be considered better than AJ.
along with only scoring 17/game and having 3.9 TO/game. and also, you CANNOT use big al's stats previous to the 2nd half last year because doc never played him (IMO this is where most of my doc hatred came from, because celtics fans knew he was special after he torched jermaine oneal in a playoff game (doesn't really show in the bball-ref since doc benched him for the rest of that series..).

fwiw, i agree with epipen's post. dwight's offensive stats can look better if he's on the right team, but big al put up 22 on 53.5 TS% while only turning it over 2x per game on the 4th worst offensive team in the league. that's damn impressive and if you don't think those numbers would be way higher on orlando, then you're nuts.
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Old 06-24-2008, 01:32 PM   #13894
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

Damn xorbie, I was going to help! Good writeup, yo.

I think BigCat did ok through round 3, but then the wheels come off with Stack, and to a lesser extent, Lewis.

We could of had a lineup of:

Davis
raja bell
worthy
ac green
bosh

Which I think would be much better.
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Old 06-24-2008, 01:33 PM   #13895
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

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Also,

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RJYmxR86zhk

you KNOW what number 1 is! Assani, I'm lookin at you.

D
Haha....I just started watching it, but yeah I'm sure of what it is already.
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Old 06-24-2008, 01:35 PM   #13896
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

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mmbt0ne has a pretty interesting team btw and we havn't discussed his at all recently:

PG Nash
SG Ginobili
SF Christie
PF Mason
C Laettner(??)
6th: Childress
7th: Rogers


Any thoughts on this?
I like it simply because I love Nashua, and I think this team might be one of the best offensively in our league. Defensively, it's going to be below average though.
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Old 06-24-2008, 01:55 PM   #13897
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

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Stack is going to be Stack, but I (or the coach) is going to instruct him to really only shoot so much when Bosh and Worthy are off the court,
lolz

let us know how that goes

You really think there's any coach (Mike Woodsons of the world aside) who doesn't try to get their chuckers to stop chucking? I mean, I guess there are some, but with as many coaches as Stack's had, and him still doing the same ****, I'd say WYSIWYG.
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Old 06-24-2008, 01:58 PM   #13898
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

'Cardo,

I agree somewhat. That's why everyone else on the team will be instructed not to pass to Stack, and Stack will be limited to 20 minutes per game. Even less when Lewis is still alive since Baron is going to take some of the minutes at the 2 and Lewis will as well, with Worthy at the 3.
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Old 06-24-2008, 02:00 PM   #13899
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

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I like it simply because I love Nashua, and I think this team might be one of the best offensively in our league. Defensively, it's going to be below average though.
I'd prefer Anthony Mason coming off the bench as a halfcourt specialist for this team. I guess that leaves us with Rogers starting? That's probably fine, right?
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Old 06-24-2008, 02:04 PM   #13900
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

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I agree somewhat. That's why everyone else on the team will be instructed not to pass to Stack
Keeps gettin' worse! Jerry gon' be pissed / will probably chuck even harder when he does get the rock out of pure spite. Plus this ****s up your ball movement something awful. This is really gonna hurt your offense more than if you'd just let Jerry Jerry it up.

Quote:
Stack will be limited to 20 minutes per game
Nowwwww you're talkin'.
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