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Old 06-24-2008, 04:17 AM   #13851
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

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Originally Posted by Assani Fisher View Post
I'm confused by this......you say that as if its a bad thing!

When the defenses key on Howard leaving the PG with more space to make a play for himself, THATS A GOOD THING THAT HOWARD ACCOMPLISHED.

So if Howard has a better TS% and he accomplishes this then thats even more reason why he should be considered better than AJ.
lol I never said it is automatically a bad thing, but I guarentee you each time any team runs the pick and roll (unless they have absolutly an amazing offense around Howard) it won't average out to whatever Howard's TS% is.

In other words, Howard's TS% > more than the pick and roll play so it's unfair to give Howard's TS% and ignore the overall effectiveness of the PG and roll play since it's not like Howard shoots the ball each time the play is run.
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Old 06-24-2008, 04:24 AM   #13852
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

Anyway i'm going to bed, I will respond to your posts tomorrow Assani.
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Old 06-24-2008, 04:38 AM   #13853
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

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Originally Posted by EPiPeN11 View Post
lol I never said it is automatically a bad thing, but I guarentee you each time any team runs the pick and roll (unless they have absolutly an amazing offense around Howard) it won't average out to whatever Howard's TS% is.

In other words, Howard's TS% > more than the pick and roll play so it's unfair to give Howard's TS% and ignore the overall effectiveness of the PG and roll play since it's not like Howard shoots the ball each time the play is run.
And sometimes the Timberwolves try to run a play for AJ and can't get him a shot(either because they denied ball entry or double teamed when it got there and forced a kick out) and that may result in a lower % shot.

Counting each FT as 1/2 of a shot, the Timberwolves are able to get Al 20.0 shots per game. The Magic are able to get Howard 17.4 shots per game. So basically theres 2 or 3 possession each game where Al is able to take a shot when the Magic would've had to have gone elsewhere due to Howard not being able to get a shot.
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Old 06-24-2008, 04:53 AM   #13854
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

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I didn't "lash out", I didn't just feel like saying ok I agree with what you said we already agreed on again.
fair enough.


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Obv I am not going to say Deng will put up 5 outa the 6 years better than his break out year, but he def has a good chance to continue to improve, and even his "bad" year last year wasn't much worse than his breakout year was
I think you misunderstood me. I listed 6 categories(ppg, rpg, apg, spg, bpg, TS%) and I said that Deng would never top 5/6 of his year 3 totals in any one year. In other words, I'm saying he won't improve. Now maybe you could argue that topping 4/6 would be an improvement, and I'd guess I'd agree there....but even still I"m not certain he'll do that. I especially don't see him touching the TS% one.


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Yes of course, but there is almost always one weak/just straight shooter out of the PG/SG/SF on any team, and he will be guarding them so it won't be a huge deal. On a team who has great offensive players at all 3 of these positions he will see less minutes.
I agree with all of that; I just thought the "well my starting 5" argument was weak and you need to account for Martin in your analysis.

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eh i'd really love to hear a teams defense u think is better than mine (not including seadood, clarks or yours)
I said your team was above average but not elite.

I said that to me "elite" means top 3 or 4.


So why do you think that I think there are more than 3 or 4 teams better than yours? I havn't looked at the other rosters completely, so I don't know either way actually. Here I'll look now....

I think the following teams are better than you on D for sure:

Mine
Seadood
Clark
cowboy2579
sergsz


I think the following teams are probably better than yours on D, but I wouldn't argue too strongly for it and to be honest you could probably convince me otherwise with a solid argument:

Nicholasp27
capone0
van_exel_fan


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You aren't the first person to say this, and I am really confused. I agree PG is the "least important defensive position" but jesus it is still important. There are a ton of great PG's who need to be guarded.
Its the least important for 3 reasons:

1. Its not a post defense spot, which means its not vital for help defense against penetration(the main reason post defense is more important than perimeter defense).

2. There are more stud wing scorers that need to be guarded than stud PG scorers.

3. Good defensive wings like Bowen can switch onto star PGs like Bowen does with Nash and Paul at times. It doesn't work the other way around due to size issues.


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This is where I think you underrate both McHale/Perkins...while neither of these are as good as the defensive bigmen you listed above, they aren't that much worse. And my wing/pg defenders are much better than most of those combos you listed (and people are really underrating wing/pg defenders).

I mean seriously, i'm not going to argue wing/pg defenders are as important as bigman defenders because they aren't, but they are still very important.
They are important for sure, but they aren't nearly as important imo. I think post defense(both one-on-one and helpside) is the single most important aspect of winning basketball in fact.
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Old 06-24-2008, 04:57 AM   #13855
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

mmbt0ne has a pretty interesting team btw and we havn't discussed his at all recently:

PG Nash
SG Ginobili
SF Christie
PF Mason
C Laettner(??)
6th: Childress
7th: Rogers


Any thoughts on this?
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Old 06-24-2008, 05:06 AM   #13856
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

Oh yea, I forgot I wanted to ask this to spark some discussion:

Assume for a second that the rules are changed to: You get the player at any age and from that age forward you are guaranteed 10 years of full 82 games/season health. After that they can still continue to play but its not guaranteed. Obviously I'm most interested in seeing where guys like Hill, Penny, Moncrief rank now....so where would you rank these guys and the other injury prone guys under this rule?




And I'd still love to see someone rank the top 10 defensive big men. Off the top of my head I'd go:

1. Dikembe Mutombo
2. Tim Duncan
3. Ben Wallace
4. David Robinson
5. Hakeem Olajuwon
6. Peja Stojakovic
7. Kevin Garnett
8. Dennis Rodman
9. Alonzo Mourning
10. Patrick Ewing



Thoughts on that?
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Old 06-24-2008, 05:13 AM   #13857
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

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mmbt0ne has a pretty interesting team
too many white guys imo

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1. Dikembe Mutombo
2. Tim Duncan
3. Ben Wallace
4. David Robinson
5. Hakeem Olajuwon
6. Peja Stojakovic
7. Kevin Garnett
8. Dennis Rodman
9. Alonzo Mourning
10. Patrick Ewing



Thoughts on that?
i'd put peja in between rodman and mourning
other than that, good list
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Old 06-24-2008, 06:29 AM   #13858
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

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Benoit was solid, not sure about Wesley.
You're just mad that he killed your guard.
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Old 06-24-2008, 08:00 AM   #13859
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

This is kinda strange, but Im currently of the opinion I'd rather not have any sort of ranking system. I'm just enjoying the draft and ranking 1-40 or 1-39 or 1-16 or whatever seems trivial. I do like seeing various teams H2H and seeing which one has the advantage and so forth though.
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Old 06-24-2008, 08:12 AM   #13860
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

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i mean if he was as great as it as you say, he'd take more than 12 shots a game. Even being generous and thinking those 11 FTs is 5.5 FGA, that's still 2 shots less than Al giving him the same bonus. If he was that sick at getting position and dunking on fools, he'd do it 20 times a game. Instead he takes a few shots and then barely gets touches in the 4th in close games.

I'm not trying to argue Al is better than Dwight.. he's not. Dwight is more valuable, by a fairly wide margin. But if you need a bucket I feel pretty good about dumping it into Al. If Dwight's on my team, I glance to see if he's in position to dunk, then when he's not take the shot myself and hope he gets the Oreb.
I'm going to "+1" this, because I think it's not even close D12 vs Big Al in terms of "better player," because Big Al is at best an average defender and likely a tiny bit below avg whereas D12 is an anchor. But offensively, it's close, but I think Big Al is the better piece on almost any conceivable offense.
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Old 06-24-2008, 08:21 AM   #13861
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

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Originally Posted by Assani Fisher View Post
And I'd still love to see someone rank the top 10 defensive big men. Off the top of my head I'd go:

1. Dikembe Mutombo
2. Tim Duncan
3. Ben Wallace
4. David Robinson
5. Hakeem Olajuwon
6. Peja Stojakovic
7. Kevin Garnett
8. Dennis Rodman
9. Alonzo Mourning
10. Patrick Ewing



Thoughts on that?
Peja, lol, nice one.

No Shaq??
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Old 06-24-2008, 09:17 AM   #13862
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

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You're just mad that he killed your guard.
He killed mine.

I like DWesley as a pick. Benoit is one of those guys that look better on paper than their reputation.
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Old 06-24-2008, 09:18 AM   #13863
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

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Originally Posted by BobboFitos View Post
I'm going to "+1" this, because I think it's not even close D12 vs Big Al in terms of "better player," because Big Al is at best an average defender and likely a tiny bit below avg whereas D12 is an anchor. But offensively, it's close, but I think Big Al is the better piece on almost any conceivable offense.
Offensive players especially in the post are nice and I even think Big Al has a better offensive game ie moves. Thing is I don't mind that D12 doesn't have great post moves, I drafted him b/c he's good enough in the paint to score 20 ppg in the league at 22 but I loved him b/c he's a rebounding beast, doesn't get hurt atleast much so far, and plays excellent D. Defensively Big Al isn't even close to being with D12.

Offensive Moves, Big Al >>> D12
Scoring Big Al = D12
Efficiency D12 >>> Big Al
Rebounding D12 > Big Al but it's close, but TREB% and DREB% D12 is better.
D, D12 >>> Big Al
Shot Blocking D12 > Big Al
Non-Injuries, D12 >> Big Al
Getting to the Line, D12 >> Big Al
Free Throw Shooting Big Al >> D12
Not turning the ball over Big Al >> D12
Upside D12 >>> Big Al, I think D12 has a chance to be the dominant big man in the league, I think Big Al has a chance to be an excellent 20-10 guy the rest of his career but I don't think he'll ever be the top big man in the league with D12, Amare, Oden coming in etc and younger guys who will be coming into the league.

For my team D12 >>> Al, I have a guy who can run the PNR for D12, I need D in the middle, and I needed an efficient scorer.

Last edited by capone0; 06-24-2008 at 09:32 AM.
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Old 06-24-2008, 09:26 AM   #13864
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

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Originally Posted by Assani Fisher View Post
Oh yea, I forgot I wanted to ask this to spark some discussion:

Assume for a second that the rules are changed to: You get the player at any age and from that age forward you are guaranteed 10 years of full 82 games/season health. After that they can still continue to play but its not guaranteed. Obviously I'm most interested in seeing where guys like Hill, Penny, Moncrief rank now....so where would you rank these guys and the other injury prone guys under this rule?




And I'd still love to see someone rank the top 10 defensive big men. Off the top of my head I'd go:

1. Dikembe Mutombo
2. Tim Duncan
3. Ben Wallace
4. David Robinson
5. Hakeem Olajuwon
6. Peja Stojakovic
7. Kevin Garnett
8. Dennis Rodman
9. Alonzo Mourning
10. Patrick Ewing



Thoughts on that?
This is a pretty good list. I'd take Peja and Drod off and bring in Shaq and Jermaine. Shaq's early defense gets pretty underrated, and DRod's as a big man is overratedl. His value comes from his rebounding, post defense, and wing defense, but he's not the typical big man defender.

Last edited by Seadood228; 06-24-2008 at 09:32 AM.
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Old 06-24-2008, 09:29 AM   #13865
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

Not sure what the D12 vs. Big Al argument is about, but what sticks out the times I've seen AJ play is that he's a woeful passer for being a post-up guy.
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Old 06-24-2008, 09:35 AM   #13866
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

Mentioning Al Jefferson in the same sentence as Dwight Howard is just an insult to Dwight Howard.
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Old 06-24-2008, 09:36 AM   #13867
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

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I'm not really sure I'm understanding this "OMG Alex's team is so great on offense" mindset. A comparison between Alex's team's first year(age 24 seasons) and this year's Orlando Magic:

-Rashard Lewis of the Magic>>>Rashard Lewis at 24
TS% was only 52.7 at 24...basically he was an inefficient chucker. This year he got it all the way up to 59.1%. All his bulk numbers were pretty similar.


-Hedo Turkoglu<<<<<<Kobe at 24
Hedo had a great year, but yeah Kobe is Kobe. Still on offense alone, Hedo was pretty damn good this year putting up 19.5 points on 57.6% TS.


-Dwight Howard>>>Al Jefferson
They scored about the same number of points, but Dwight had a TS% of 61.9 while AJ's was only 53.5. I was very surprised to see that their offensive rebounds were similar though, as I was expecting Dwight to be way ahead(in fact, AJ is actually ahead here!!)




Ugh...just realized that I can't go any further due to undrafted players on the Magic. But, as you can see the Magic win 2/3 of the matchups here and they're more efficient in each of them. And Alex's other starters are Dalembert and Hinrich, neither of whom is an offensive fireworkhouseboy.

Now I'm not saying that the Magic are better on offense than Alex's team. In fact, I'd gladly admit that Alex's team is better. However, its at least comparable, no? And the Magic were only 7th in offensive rating this year.
Seadood-This and there are multiple responses to this.
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Old 06-24-2008, 09:36 AM   #13868
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

Love the Benjamin pick. Almost took him instead of Curry.

Quote:
-Rashard Lewis of the Magic>>>Rashard Lewis at 24
TS% was only 52.7 at 24...basically he was an inefficient chucker. This year he got it all the way up to 59.1%. All his bulk numbers were pretty similar.
Holy cherry picking. This is why people get upset with you.

Lewis TS%
20- 54.3%
21 - 58.7%
22 - 56.4%
23 - 53.7%
24 - 52.7%
25 - 57.1%
26 - 58.5%
27 - 58.7%
28 - 59.1%

So you basically take the worst season in his career and compare it to his best (and his best isn't much of an anomaly, similar to his 21yo season, and the first time there was actually an inside presense to help free him up).
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Old 06-24-2008, 09:39 AM   #13869
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

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Not sure what the D12 vs. Big Al argument is about, but what sticks out the times I've seen AJ play is that he's a woeful passer for being a post-up guy.
Both are horrible passers. Don't get to watch much of either but I guess Big Al is considered a 4 and a 4 you want a guy who can pass out of the blocks while D12 is considered a 5 and is basically a blackhole once it gets to him, he's either scoring or turning the ball over. His assists numbers are horrible. That's 1 feature that Shaq is a lot better in than Dwight other than offensive moves which again Shaq is much better in.
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Old 06-24-2008, 09:46 AM   #13870
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

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Mentioning Al Jefferson in the same sentence as Dwight Howard is just an insult to Dwight Howard.
for the record no one was doing this. i think capone took the statement the wrong way. people were comparing their OFFENSE, since overall D12 is a better player obviously AINEC.
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Old 06-24-2008, 09:48 AM   #13871
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

Didn't take them the wrong way but I agree with the statements that Big Al has better post moves I just don't think he's that much better offensively in this league. I guess D12 is going to have problems scoring against some of the sicker defenders in this league, but guess what everyone is as well.
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Old 06-24-2008, 09:56 AM   #13872
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

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Both are horrible passers. Don't get to watch much of either but I guess Big Al is considered a 4 and a 4 you want a guy who can pass out of the blocks while D12 is considered a 5 and is basically a blackhole once it gets to him, he's either scoring or turning the ball over. His assists numbers are horrible. That's 1 feature that Shaq is a lot better in than Dwight other than offensive moves which again Shaq is much better in.
Jefferson is a pure post guy, he should be passing more. D12 gets the ball in a position to score, and I don't think their assist numbers can be compared that way.
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Old 06-24-2008, 10:03 AM   #13873
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

Hey guys, just woke up, glad to see me and xorbie have taken over! Write-ups to come, likely this afternoon.

Looking over BigCat's team, we thought that it desperately needed 3 pt shooting and a big man. Benjamin seemed like the obvious choice for the big man, but we had options about the 3 pt shooting.

The team already had Worthy/Lewis/Stack at SF/SG, and Baron can play the two also, so taking another SG/SF seemed silly. It would have been nice if ONE of those guys could shoot the 3. We think that the teams best chance at success is to get out on the break as much as possible.

We concluded that getting someone that could run the point part time and shoot 3s was the priority. We liked what Wesley gave us in the steals/3s category, so he was the pick.

Between ages 24-30, Wesley gives us:

13.7 ppg, 37.8% on 3s, 5.7 apg, and 1.6 spg. I think for us, he will be similar in those respects to a Hornacek or T. Porter kind of player - good on D, can run the point, and shoot the 3. Obviously he's not as good as those guys, but they were taken a long time ago.

More to come,

D
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Old 06-24-2008, 10:05 AM   #13874
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

Also, this is old Wesley, we are getting a much younger version that can make such shots


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cvOm7dPS0Uw
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Old 06-24-2008, 10:07 AM   #13875
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

Nice writeups, I concur. ^^^
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