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Old 06-23-2008, 07:50 PM   #13676
Steroid Boy
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

i guess its quite obvious i dont really follow basketball much, but this seemed like a great idea and sounded like it would be a blast
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Old 06-23-2008, 07:51 PM   #13677
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

Tarpley played like 82 total games over his career. Anyone would be a fool to draft him.
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Old 06-23-2008, 07:51 PM   #13678
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

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Originally Posted by Steroid Boy View Post
i guess its quite obvious i dont really follow basketball much, but this seemed like a great idea and sounded like it would be a blast
Meh, your team isn't the worst in the league by any stretch, it's just that with Jordan it had the chance to be the best.
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Old 06-23-2008, 07:54 PM   #13679
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

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Originally Posted by kidcolin View Post
two very long posts, but one thing I want to address. The love for steroid's team. Yes, he has Jordan. Yes, Terry fits very nicely on that team.

But Josh Smith was assuredly a reach. And Juwan Howard was an AWFUL choice. Honestly I'd draft Joe Smith over him. But really he could have had AC Green, West, Caron.. basically the whole next ROUND of picks were better than Juwan Howard.

And I generally find Camby overrated. Trouble staying on the court, weak-side block prowler rather than elite defensive post defense (read a good article about this recently. Opposing centers go off on Camby because he's so block hungry). Pretty weak offensively.

Jordan is amazing, but he's not like this superhero who willed 6 teams to rings. He played for awesome teams. When they weren't so awesome, Jordan suffered playoff exit after playoff exit. That's exactly what I expect out of this squad in this league.
+1, I think Steroid Boy is held under the most intense scrutiny since he has MJ (obv) and his team is midlevel at best compared to some of the other teams imo.
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Old 06-23-2008, 07:55 PM   #13680
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

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Meh, your team isn't the worst in the league by any stretch, it's just that with Jordan it had the chance to be the best.
i really wanted to draft AK47 Mark Jackson Al Jefferson and David Lee and i probably panicked when all of them went within 10 picks of mine

oh well im gonna have a sick pick for round 10 as a team manager, already got him lined up

oh w/ the post defense, i realize i dont have strong 1 on 1 defenders but can anyone in the league expect to stop shaq, duncan, hakeem, etc w/ anyone 1 on 1

i could always draft some big guy to just wear down the elite post scores by leaning on them and also to mitigate the lack of 1 on 1 post defenders on my team I can play different variations of zone defense depending on which team I get matched up on
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Old 06-23-2008, 07:57 PM   #13681
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

Quote:
Originally Posted by kidcolin View Post
two very long posts, but one thing I want to address. The love for steroid's team. Yes, he has Jordan. Yes, Terry fits very nicely on that team.

But Josh Smith was assuredly a reach. And Juwan Howard was an AWFUL choice. Honestly I'd draft Joe Smith over him. But really he could have had AC Green, West, Caron.. basically the whole next ROUND of picks were better than Juwan Howard.

And I generally find Camby overrated. Trouble staying on the court, weak-side block prowler rather than elite defensive post defense (read a good article about this recently. Opposing centers go off on Camby because he's so block hungry). Pretty weak offensively.

Jordan is amazing, but he's not like this superhero who willed 6 teams to rings. He played for awesome teams. When they weren't so awesome, Jordan suffered playoff exit after playoff exit. That's exactly what I expect out of this squad in this league.
I agree with this, but I think I'm higher on Smith than you are. I think that while his team is definitely not the best, they could easily upset any team in a best of 7 series because Jordan can go off and when Smith is getting steals/blocks and getting out in transition he can be very effective.
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Old 06-23-2008, 08:01 PM   #13682
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

My bigs:
Shaq, 22nd all time career DReb%. 23rd all time career OReb%. Somehow, this equates to 14th all time career TReb%.
DC, 44th career all time Dreb%. 92nd all time OReb%. Total 63rd all time.

Both guys can log heavy minutes. I think it's safe to say my bigs are a sick boarding duo..
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Old 06-23-2008, 08:02 PM   #13683
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

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Originally Posted by Seadood228 View Post
I might do this. Assani I remember Deke giving Hakeem fits that year the Nugs beat the sonics and the Rockets won the title, but dismissed it as a semi-fluke. Looking at the stats though, many of them point to Mutombo being able to hold his own in a H2H. If I have time I'll go deeper.

[edit] Oh man, I just got chills thinking about that season. Nugs get blown out by the Sonics in games 1 and 2, then come back to win the next 3. They play the Jazz in the WCSF and go down 3-0, then win the next three to force a game 7, with one of those games being a 2OT thriller featuring last second shots by both teams. That Nugs team was really a bunch of overachievers, especially considering that only one of them has been drafted.

[edit2]Make that 2. Rodney was just drafted, but he was a pipsqueak then..
wtf! Why do I have no memory of this at all???
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Old 06-23-2008, 08:04 PM   #13684
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

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Originally Posted by tbach24 View Post
Also, just want to mention that you all should take a closer look at my team. It's huuge (6'4, 6'8, 6'8, 6'10, 7'3 + 6'9 otb). Also, very skilled. Before my players get injured (that 5 year period), my team will be a force to be reckoned with.
As I said though....I'm a huge fan of the Durant pick, but it just doesn't fit with your team one bit.
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Old 06-23-2008, 08:05 PM   #13685
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

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You guys can sweeten the deal if you let me drop Roy ****** Tarpley and pick twice in a row.

D
i think its fine.
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Old 06-23-2008, 08:09 PM   #13686
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

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Originally Posted by xorbie View Post
Tarpley played like 82 total games over his career. Anyone would be a fool to draft him.
Serious q, how many games has Bynum played?
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Old 06-23-2008, 08:10 PM   #13687
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

When was the last pick made?

Has BigCat had a history of taking this long?

Have all his writeups been subpar?

Has he been active in this thread at all when its not his pick?



I want to get definitive answers to these questions(not just based upon my own memory) first.

Personally though, I'm not bored at all, as I think we have some solid discussion here.
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Old 06-23-2008, 08:11 PM   #13688
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

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Originally Posted by BobboFitos View Post
Serious q, how many games has Bynum played?
163
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Old 06-23-2008, 08:13 PM   #13689
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

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Originally Posted by Assani Fisher View Post
When was the last pick made?

Has BigCat had a history of taking this long?

Have all his writeups been subpar?

Has he been active in this thread at all when its not his pick?



I want to get definitive answers to these questions(not just based upon my own memory) first.

Personally though, I'm not bored at all, as I think we have some solid discussion here.
last pick: 2 days, 2 hours, still counting
Yes, he takes forever, we need to page Bigchips everytime.
His writeups suck.
No, he doesn't post at all.

I think the idea of 2 picks in a row and booting Roy Tarpley is wonderful, and I'm cool w/ either D104 or Xorb.
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Old 06-23-2008, 08:14 PM   #13690
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

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Originally Posted by Steroid Boy View Post
163
Tarpley did play 280 career games for the record!
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Old 06-23-2008, 08:16 PM   #13691
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

Quote:
Originally Posted by Assani Fisher View Post
When was the last pick made?

Has BigCat had a history of taking this long?

Have all his writeups been subpar?

Has he been active in this thread at all when its not his pick?



I want to get definitive answers to these questions(not just based upon my own memory) first.

Personally though, I'm not bored at all, as I think we have some solid discussion here.
It's been 24 hours minimum for every pick IIRC. I don't remember his writeups. He is active for a little while before and after his pick and then fades out.
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Old 06-23-2008, 08:16 PM   #13692
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

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Originally Posted by Assani Fisher View Post
wtf! Why do I have no memory of this at all???
This video is all I could dig up. It's a Dick Emberg preview of game 7

And what makes this more sick is that the 2OT thriller was in game 5!

Sick sick sick. If there was drama like that in this year's playoff series, we'd have been in for a treat. Check out the ages of the Nugs rotation.

23, 29, 23, 27, 24, 24, 22.

That's why I'm not so convinced that the Blazers are going to be a dynasty, and wasn't convinced last year about the Bulls. I'll probably eat crow one of these days, but from what I've seen a team full of young'ns always seems to fizzle quickly.
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Old 06-23-2008, 08:18 PM   #13693
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

Quote:
Originally Posted by Assani Fisher View Post
When was the last pick made?

Has BigCat had a history of taking this long?

Have all his writeups been subpar?

Has he been active in this thread at all when its not his pick?



I want to get definitive answers to these questions(not just based upon my own memory) first.

Personally though, I'm not bored at all, as I think we have some solid discussion here.

1) Saturday at 3:30pm est
2) Worthy- 1 paragraph
Bosh- No write up
Davis- 1 paragraph; copy/paste list of stats
Stackhouse- 1 paragraph
Lewis- No write up
Tarpley- 1 paragraph
3)No he hasnt been active when not his picks
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Old 06-23-2008, 08:19 PM   #13694
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

Epipen's team:

1. I think you've raped people in trades. Picks have so much more value early on.

2. McHale and Martin and Bell were solid picks for sure. Like those a lot.

3. I think Deron Williams was just too much value to pass up for Billups, but I do understand your point about defense/3point shooting combo that Billups gives you. Still I think it was a mistake.

4. Deng is a tough one to call. YOu're 100% right that he goes much higher a year ago, but thats only because a year ago we thought he was still improving each and every year...and now we may have seen his peak already. Eh, its an ok pick but nothing special.

5. Perkins is ok imo...nothing special.



Personally I would've loved to see you address center earlier. Maybe Theo Ratliff instead of Deng. That would give you a starting 5 of:

Billups
Martin
Bell
McHale
Ratliff

I think thats a better team that what you have.


Overall I do like your team though. Defensively they're above average(but not elite at all). Offensively I think they're really solid and should work well together. Definitely a top 10 offense in this league, arguably even one of the best.
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Old 06-23-2008, 08:20 PM   #13695
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

I think it's safe to say D104 and/or Xorbie have been huge contributors to this thread. Biiiiigchips has as well, but Bigcat has not.
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Old 06-23-2008, 08:22 PM   #13696
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

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Originally Posted by horizon View Post
Defense is definitely overrated.
The purpose of defense in Basketball is to make it harder to score, not to prevent others from scoring, because you cannot do it. For that reason, the difference between a good defense and a great defense doesn’t come close to the difference between good offence and great offense.
Defensively, your main purpose in this draft should be to solid enough to not get murdered, but you’re foolish if you think that you’re going to really stop the top offensive teams.
The all for defense mindset is correct in the NBA, not in our league.
The Spurs have had so much success defensively in recent years because they were facing teams that did not have the weapons to overcome their defense. The Spurs would never hold Alex’s team under 90 points.
Basically, to have a truly dominating defensive team (that is a team that would be as dominant in our league as the Spurs have been in the nba), you’ll have to line up Payton/Jordan/Pippen/Duncan/ Mutumbo or something like that, and that’s obviously very tough to do.
That’s why I think no offense defensive specialist like Bruce Bowen are tremendously overrated in this draft.
Bruce Bowen can not shut down Kobe by himself, he’s going to need help; but if everyone of Kobe’s team-mates going to be an offensive mismatch(which is almost the case for Alex’steam) your defensive scheme is going to be severly compromised and your losing a ton of value by picking defensive specialists.

This statement is somewhat true.

The types of teams we are building here, its going to be near impossible to hold any of these teams under 100 points.

You can have Duncan and Dikembe on the same team and will you still be able to stop shaq from scoring 30 a game ? I doubt it. You cant even double team because shaq has such great support.

Good offense usually beats good defense. Thats why picks of defensive specialists were so bad if they cant also shoot or do something else.


Without even knowing what the rest of the rosters are for the teams , these have to be the best teams in order just because these players are too good.

1. Michael jordans team
2. Magic johnson
3. Larry bird.
4. hakeem
5. shaq.


I dont think there ever has been or ever will be a defense that can stop any of those players from dominating a basketball game.
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Old 06-23-2008, 08:23 PM   #13697
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

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Originally Posted by BobboFitos View Post
Tarpley did play 280 career games for the record!
I know you are just joking around but seriously 130 of these were before age 24. Epically bad pick, even so late in the draft. Makes Bynum look like Hakeem.
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Old 06-23-2008, 08:23 PM   #13698
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

I don't think DH is a great #1 option but I dont feel like you really need a great #1 option in this league. I have 6 really good players 1-6. I don't need a guy to take over. Everyone of my top 5 has averaged atleast 19 ppg in atleast 1 season. I think post D is the most important thing you need to win in a league like this and I wanted a guy like Shaq offensively who could play D and rebound. I think my front court + iggy are all very good defenders while DH being an elite defender in the league nowadays although he's quite young. SS and TH aren't elite defenders and of the two I think SS is the only one that's an average defender for his position. TH when he played with Miami with Mourning in the paint he played pretty well for the position instead of in GS when they played Run DMC style game.

I think my team definitely has some flaws. But I think I have enough spacing. SS in his career is 30th in 3 pointers attempted. Clifford is 17th all time and Hardaway is 3rd. So I'm pretty sure I have floor spacing covered if you think all I have is slashers and guys getting to the rim. I will admit Clifford isn't the best 3 point shooter, but both Hardaway and Clifford and Steve Smith all shoot around 35% for their careers from 3 poitn land.

I still think my team needs an off the ball shot blocker, I think my team needs another wing defender (there aren't many left) and I think my team needs another PG.

1 reason I wanted TH is I thought he was excellent value for that part of the draft and the only guy in his general range who I prefered to him was Kevin Johnson who had a shorter career. His 1 major flaw is his TS% which is only 53% but there are guys picked above him who are also in that general range and when you consider in his peak years he was in the 55% range and really tailed off between 32-36, his problems can be explained. Passing wise I wanted a guy who could feed DH like Nash does Amare. I also think the 1 and the 5 are the most important positions to build around in any league, they dominate other than Jordan and Bird. I also liked that he excelled with Run DMC and the slow down game in Miami so he can play both games (the stats are suprisingly similar on both teams e/c his TS% is lower with Miami but his PER is similar.

Last edited by capone0; 06-23-2008 at 08:30 PM.
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Old 06-23-2008, 08:24 PM   #13699
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

Quote:
Average for all champs: 5.36th in offensive rating, 4.96th in defensive rating
This is not very convincing, as offense and defense seems to have very similar value according to this numbers.
Anyway, I've never said that defense was useless, simply that it was overrated because it is not more important than offense. A good defense allows you to compete, but then you need good offense to get over the hump. Therefore I don't get why there is so much emphasis on defense.
My team is definitely not one of the best defensively, but since my defense is still good, I feel that I give up very little to the top defensive teams.

Quote:
I don't understand what you mean by "stop." Lets say you take a player like Kobe Bryant. Normally lets say he scores 27 points on 55% TS(numbers totally off the top of my head). Now lets say you match him up with the Spurs with Bruce Bowen on him and Tim Duncan waiting for him in the paint. Is it not fair to assume that he may only get 22 points on 52% TS now?
You're right about that, but the Bryant Bowen example is not fair, because Bowen really has a psychological edge on Kobe, but that's another subject.
Anyway, my thinking was more that a great offensive threat will often take advantage of his defender if there is no defensive help. And if you have a couple of players than can create those kind of mismatches on the fllor at the same time, any defense will be in trouble.
But you maybe such an offensive team is as difficult to built as a dominant defensive team, (though a team like ALex's is a good example)

Quote:
You say that I'm foolish to think that I'm going to really stop the top offensive teams, but I think you're foolish if you think anyone is going to run all over the top defensive teams.
Actually I was not thinking about any team in particular, it was more a reaction to the way teams were being judged.
I certaninly did not have your tema in my mind. Hardaway has his problems, but Hardaway and Duncan is a terrific offensive duo
Quote:
A team like the recent Suns is as strong offensively as any in the draft. Hell they had players drafted at #22, #27, #32, #173, and #210 in this draft!
Some of the Suns' players have got to be overrated but I m not sure who...


Quote:
Your logic makes no sense. The Spurs in the NBA held many teams to 90 points, but against the elite offensive teams like the Suns they give up over 100. Yet you use 90 points against perhaps the best offensive team in our league(Alex's) as a benchmark? Thats totally unfair.
The 90 points were not a meaningful number in my mind, but just a way of saying that defense won't probably be as efficient as good offense against elite teams.

Quote:
First off Bowen does give you something on offense in that he can hit the open 3, he spaces the floor well, he rarely takes bad shots that hurt the team, and hes an efficient passer when swinging the ball around the key.

Secondly, Bowen went in the 6th round. Compare that to the all offense/ no defense guys who have been going since the first(Amare/Nash) continuing on to the 2nd round(Arenas, Gasol, Allen, Price) and all the way throughout the whole thing.

How is it "overrated" to go in the 6th round!!!???

Even still I think you're wrong and Bowen was a steal there. You seem to be confusing completely shutting down an offense with severely limiting it. Each shot that Bowen's man misses that he wouldn't have missed against a weaker defender is just as good as scoring on the other end. Hell its even more valuable if your team already has plenty of scoring options.
First off, Bowen is terrible on offense. His three point shooting is the only reason, POP can afford to have him on the floor, and considering that he the best wing defender of the last ten year that's really saying something.
It does not really space the floor as teams let him stand alone on the corner and don't bother guarding him.

I don't think he was a bad pick at all ( Dereck Fisher was next!), but I would not call him one of the steal of the draft. He's terrible on offense and that's someting to consider. There's a reason why the SPurs often have had trouble scoring in the past.
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Old 06-23-2008, 08:27 PM   #13700
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

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Originally Posted by NopairParker View Post
This statement is somewhat true.

The types of teams we are building here, its going to be near impossible to hold any of these teams under 100 points.

You can have Duncan and Dikembe on the same team and will you still be able to stop shaq from scoring 30 a game ? I doubt it. You cant even double team because shaq has such great support.

Good offense usually beats good defense. Thats why picks of defensive specialists were so bad if they cant also shoot or do something else.


Without even knowing what the rest of the rosters are for the teams , these have to be the best teams in order just because these players are too good.

1. Michael jordans team
2. Magic johnson
3. Larry bird.
4. hakeem
5. shaq.


I dont think there ever has been or ever will be a defense that can stop any of those players from dominating a basketball game.
I disagree with pretty much everything you say here.
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