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Old 06-23-2008, 06:34 AM   #13601
xxThe_Lebowskixx
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

wow that guy is a crazy ms painter.
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Old 06-23-2008, 07:49 AM   #13602
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

Assani,

I think you're overrating Moncrief a little bit, and I've already expressed my views on Deron, so no need to get into that again. I honestly just can't believe that there is anyway Moncrief>Ray Allen. Ray's career arc is just slightly better, and Ray is nowhere near the injury risk Moncrief is, considering it was pretty much known out of college that Moncrief was going to have knee problems that would limit him.
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Old 06-23-2008, 08:43 AM   #13603
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

I appreciate the love for my team and agree with the sentiment that being a little bold and going for offensive players early when others were taking a more balanced approach is the reason my team looks good now. I'd say that some of the worst teams are ones like tdarko and sergz who went with defense early and now look like they will have trouble scoring, and this is despite both teams having the potential steal of the draft (Deron, Schrempf). Even so, I'd be interested to see what people though if I went even less conservative and picked like Vin Baker, Kenny Smith, and Dell Curry with my last three picks.

Having said that, here are a few of my favorite/best teams:

nopairparker - He's been criticized a lot but I think this team is quite good. For all the flak the Bynum pick has gotten, him and Chambers make a solid duo. Having many slashers on a team isn't a bad thing as some have presumed, and I can't imagine that guys like Wade and Wallace can't hit open shots as well if they need to. Wallace and Gordon seem like steals to me. I find it strange that Gordon went over a round after Hinrich.

tbach24 - Man there are a lot of "if's" on that team, but just taking the most likely outcome for each players gives you four offensive stars, a good distributor, and a lockdown defender. Again, maybe I'm overrating potential, but I don't see how Durant slipped so far past Joe Johnson and the like, unless we somehow think minimizing variance is more important than maximizing EV here.

Nicholasp27 - Now here's a defensive team that I like. Two great stoppers in the middle who can score efficiently and in reasonable bulk. Two athletic wing players who can create their own shot and can also stretch the floor with their jump shooting. And two young point guards, both already very good defenders, with a good chance that at least one develops into a potent passer and scorer. Maybe the most complete team in the league.
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Old 06-23-2008, 10:15 AM   #13604
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

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Originally Posted by .Alex. View Post
I appreciate the love for my team and agree with the sentiment that being a little bold and going for offensive players early when others were taking a more balanced approach is the reason my team looks good now. I'd say that some of the worst teams are ones like tdarko and sergz who went with defense early and now look like they will have trouble scoring, and this is despite both teams having the potential steal of the draft (Deron, Schrempf). Even so, I'd be interested to see what people though if I went even less conservative and picked like Vin Baker, Kenny Smith, and Dell Curry with my last three picks.

Having said that, here are a few of my favorite/best teams:

nopairparker - He's been criticized a lot but I think this team is quite good. For all the flak the Bynum pick has gotten, him and Chambers make a solid duo. Having many slashers on a team isn't a bad thing as some have presumed, and I can't imagine that guys like Wade and Wallace can't hit open shots as well if they need to. Wallace and Gordon seem like steals to me. I find it strange that Gordon went over a round after Hinrich.

tbach24 - Man there are a lot of "if's" on that team, but just taking the most likely outcome for each players gives you four offensive stars, a good distributor, and a lockdown defender. Again, maybe I'm overrating potential, but I don't see how Durant slipped so far past Joe Johnson and the like, unless we somehow think minimizing variance is more important than maximizing EV here.

Nicholasp27 - Now here's a defensive team that I like. Two great stoppers in the middle who can score efficiently and in reasonable bulk. Two athletic wing players who can create their own shot and can also stretch the floor with their jump shooting. And two young point guards, both already very good defenders, with a good chance that at least one develops into a potent passer and scorer. Maybe the most complete team in the league.
I am really surprised that you feel my team will have trouble scoring. I have high TS% at every spot other than Bowen. I have a guy who is among the best at creating his own shot (Arenas). I have two wings who are both good outside shooters and are very good at getting to the rim (Gay and Schrempf). I have a very solid post scorer in Ruland (at least for the first few years of the league). Schrempf and Ruland are also among the best passers at their positions. I think I have actually paid a lot of attention to creating a very balanced offense.
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Old 06-23-2008, 10:31 AM   #13605
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

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I am really surprised that you feel my team will have trouble scoring. I have high TS% at every spot other than Bowen. I have a guy who is among the best at creating his own shot (Arenas). I have two wings who are both good outside shooters and are very good at getting to the rim (Gay and Schrempf). I have a very solid post scorer in Ruland (at least for the first few years of the league). Schrempf and Ruland are also among the best passers at their positions. I think I have actually paid a lot of attention to creating a very balanced offense.
Sergz team kills Alex's imo. They play better defense, and are better passers, which will help their already better efficiency. I don't even see how that's close, especially considering Bowen has turned Kobe into a horrible player when they've played eachother. Does Big Al score efficiently on Mutombo? We know he can't pass for s**t, so even if a double comes, does he recognize it and hit one of their one true 3 point threat? Will this team out-board sergz's? This is a horrible matchup for Alex's team, with Rashard being their only great match-up, and he's not a good passer.

Does Hinrich turn Gil into that inefficient of a player? Detlef? Mutombo?

Seriously I don't see how it's close.

Quote:
For that reason, the difference between a good defense and a great defense doesn’t come close to the difference between good offence and great offense.
The problem with this statement is that you're acting as if many of these "defensive specialists" are bad at offense. There are a few, but most of them have been very good offensively in their role, and there definitely is going to be a problem with teams that have too many scorers, especially guys who are inefficient and don't pass. It's never worked in the past, and it won't work in the future. Fit is HUGE in basketball, and can make up for deficiencies in talent. It doesn't go the other way around imo.

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Old 06-23-2008, 12:40 PM   #13606
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

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Hedo? I would never take Hedo..
I felt that way when FaDi took him, but he's actually more impressive than I thought. He's still pretty young.
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Old 06-23-2008, 12:54 PM   #13607
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

horizon,

I could not disagree more on both counts. Fit is by far more important than maximizing talent. Is it best to have two great post scoring big guys or one scorer and a defender or a post scorer and a guy who can step out and hit a 3? Is it best to have 3 guys who are all primary ball handlers and don't play much defense? No. Also, I disagree that defense is unimportant. The Celtics showed what a great defense can do to a great offense, and very few teams in this league have a better offense than this years Lakers (while many teams have the capacity to set up nearly as good a defense as the Celtics imo).

For example, I feel specifically that steroid boy's team has all pretty good value picks (with Jordan obviously one of the best - albeit easiest - picks in the draft), but that team does not fit together at all. You have two defenders who are both very good at playing weak side defense and getting blocks in the lane (Josh Smith and Marcus Camby), but you don't have anyone that actually plays solid post defense and besides Jordan you really don't have anyone that is guaranteed to lock down their guy, because Josh Smith is sort of a 3/4 tweener and can't always stay with the 3s. So your team gets killed by teams that have good big guys and they get killed by teams that can spread the floor well (to keep Josh Smith and Camby at home) and have a bunch of perimeter guys who can penetrate and score. Like, say, nich's team. It's a team that is pretty alright on defense and pretty alright on offense and because they have Jordan I'm happy to say that it might be an above average team, but it's certainly not top 10 at this point.
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Old 06-23-2008, 12:57 PM   #13608
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

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Defense is definitely overrated.
The purpose of defense in Basketball is to make it harder to score, not to prevent others from scoring, because you cannot do it. For that reason, the difference between a good defense and a great defense doesn’t come close to the difference between good offence and great offense.
Defensively, your main purpose in this draft should be to solid enough to not get murdered, but you’re foolish if you think that you’re going to really stop the top offensive teams.
The all for defense mindset is correct in the NBA, not in our league.
The Spurs have had so much success defensively in recent years because they were facing teams that did not have the weapons to overcome their defense. The Spurs would never hold Alex’s team under 90 points.
Basically, to have a truly dominating defensive team (that is a team that would be as dominant in our league as the Spurs have been in the nba), you’ll have to line up Payton/Jordan/Pippen/Duncan/ Mutumbo or something like that, and that’s obviously very tough to do.
That’s why I think no offense defensive specialist like Bruce Bowen are tremendously overrated in this draft.
Bruce Bowen can not shut down Kobe by himself, he’s going to need help; but if everyone of Kobe’s team-mates going to be an offensive mismatch(which is almost the case for Alex’steam) your defensive scheme is going to be severly compromised and your losing a ton of value by picking defensive specialists.
The Celtics say hi (I bet that's been posted already).

I agree with you to some extent. The problem in this draft is that many players are hard to determine, as defense is such a team oriented thing. Guys like Duncan, KG, Lambs, D-Rob, Rodman, Hakeem, etc etc.. we know they're awesome. But take a guy like Rip Hamilton.. he was atrocious in DC, then became quite solid in Detroit. Same with Ray Allen. And what about Amare? He certainly has the tools to be at least a good defender.

Basically, I think if you got a solid defensive frontcourt, your backcourt will be OK. That's why I wasn't a huge fan of the McCray pick (though he's a good player so it's not bad or anything, especially since Caron got nabbed right before that). Guys like Raja and Bowen are a bit overrated in my mind.
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Old 06-23-2008, 01:09 PM   #13609
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

ya my team was very poor interior d which is the most important aspect of d. harper and prince are great at d on the outside tho.

bogut is bad on d, ive seen him play enough. havent seen much amare but he gets a lot of hate. both are young tho. amare is sickly athletic and bogut is big with a strong build. i think both have the physical tools to be great on d, amare esp.

to xorbie, who said i have no wing play, i think big dog is great on the wing.
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Old 06-23-2008, 01:11 PM   #13610
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

Also I like sergz team a lot but no way they kill Alex. Deke is obviously the best defender in the draft, but Al J will still be able to score in some capacity (look up his games vs guys like Duncan, Bynum, he even has some success against KG and Yao Ming though it looks like guys with more length might give him trouble, obviously small sample size so it's hard to know). Bowen will slow Kobe down but not shut him down. Lewis and Hinrich will get a few points. Obviously sergz team plays excellent defense and so it will be pretty effective, but you have to look at a few other factors:

1. Bowen/Schrempf and Ruland do not match up well, Ruland is out of the league after a while and your wings take a while to get minutes. I know this has been argued already but I think it's a stretch to say Bowen/Schrempf at 24 are capable of playing as many minutes as they do at 30 and play them effectively.

2. Even ignoring that, when you play Bowen for major minutes, it hurts the offense. Gil is a beast obviously but Kobe can do a very good job on either Gay or Schrempf and Rashard Lewis is perfect to play against Bowen because he is quick enough to play some help D in the post on Ruland and still get back.

3. This is the perfect sort of team for Al J/Dalembert defensively you can stick Dalembert on Ruland and Al J is good enough to limit Deke since he is a big body and only struggles against quicker, more offensive minded forwards. Together the bigs can shut down the lane pretty effectively against this team, both will rebound well and both can help block shots against Gay/Arenas/Schrempf who do all take it to the hoop.

I see this match up being a real grind it out game, with both teams having more trouble than usual scoring on the other.
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Old 06-23-2008, 01:13 PM   #13611
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

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Basically, I think if you got a solid defensive frontcourt, your backcourt will be OK.
+1

It is way easier for a good defensive frontcourt to compensate for any deficiencies in the backcourt than for a good defensive backcourt to compensate for a bad defensive frontcourt.
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Old 06-23-2008, 01:21 PM   #13612
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

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Sergz team kills Alex's imo. They play better defense, and are better passers, which will help their already better efficiency. I don't even see how that's close, especially considering Bowen has turned Kobe into a horrible player when they've played eachother. Does Big Al score efficiently on Mutombo? We know he can't pass for s**t, so even if a double comes, does he recognize it and hit one of their one true 3 point threat? Will this team out-board sergz's? This is a horrible matchup for Alex's team, with Rashard being their only great match-up, and he's not a good passer.

Does Hinrich turn Gil into that inefficient of a player? Detlef? Mutombo?

Seriously I don't see how it's close.



The problem with this statement is that you're acting as if many of these "defensive specialists" are bad at offense. There are a few, but most of them have been very good offensively in their role, and there definitely is going to be a problem with teams that have too many scorers, especially guys who are inefficient and don't pass. It's never worked in the past, and it won't work in the future. Fit is HUGE in basketball, and can make up for deficiencies in talent. It doesn't go the other way around imo.
Good post seadood. I agree. I still love Alex's team though, but I think you're right, Sergz would be the favorite in the a 7 game series. Lets see how they draft their benches though!
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Old 06-23-2008, 01:23 PM   #13613
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

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Also I like sergz team a lot but no way they kill Alex. Deke is obviously the best defender in the draft, but Al J will still be able to score in some capacity (look up his games vs guys like Duncan, Bynum, he even has some success against KG and Yao Ming though it looks like guys with more length might give him trouble, obviously small sample size so it's hard to know). Bowen will slow Kobe down but not shut him down. Lewis and Hinrich will get a few points. Obviously sergz team plays excellent defense and so it will be pretty effective, but you have to look at a few other factors:

1. Bowen/Schrempf and Ruland do not match up well, Ruland is out of the league after a while and your wings take a while to get minutes. I know this has been argued already but I think it's a stretch to say Bowen/Schrempf at 24 are capable of playing as many minutes as they do at 30 and play them effectively.

2. Even ignoring that, when you play Bowen for major minutes, it hurts the offense. Gil is a beast obviously but Kobe can do a very good job on either Gay or Schrempf and Rashard Lewis is perfect to play against Bowen because he is quick enough to play some help D in the post on Ruland and still get back.

3. This is the perfect sort of team for Al J/Dalembert defensively you can stick Dalembert on Ruland and Al J is good enough to limit Deke since he is a big body and only struggles against quicker, more offensive minded forwards. Together the bigs can shut down the lane pretty effectively against this team, both will rebound well and both can help block shots against Gay/Arenas/Schrempf who do all take it to the hoop.

I see this match up being a real grind it out game, with both teams having more trouble than usual scoring on the other.
^^^^ All good points, and conceded. I think you are right that it'd be a good game. Also, in looking at Dikembe vs. Hakeem, Drob, and Shaq, I'm pretty convinced that he's the best defensive player in the draft. And supposedly 1v1 D wasn't his strong suit

Also, I really like Hedo in this draft, especially where he was taken. I almost took him instead of Mike Miller in the 4th round, and think he's one of the more complete players in the league. Defensively all of his numbers are pretty good, and he has the ability to shoot, pass, and drive. He's also ugly as sin which can only help in this format.

And KC is only saying wing defense is overrated because he didn't draft one and there's none left.. j/k. Seriously he does have a point, and I think that having a wing who can shoot lights out is more important for support and spacing. If he plays excellent defense, then that's even better. I think a player who can camp and shoot in that spot is much more valuable than someone who has no range and scores a ton of inefficient points. The more talented your 1-4 are offensively, the less I like that type of player.
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Old 06-23-2008, 01:25 PM   #13614
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

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Also I like sergz team a lot but no way they kill Alex. Deke is obviously the best defender in the draft, but Al J will still be able to score in some capacity (look up his games vs guys like Duncan, Bynum, he even has some success against KG and Yao Ming though it looks like guys with more length might give him trouble, obviously small sample size so it's hard to know). Bowen will slow Kobe down but not shut him down. Lewis and Hinrich will get a few points. Obviously sergz team plays excellent defense and so it will be pretty effective, but you have to look at a few other factors:

1. Bowen/Schrempf and Ruland do not match up well, Ruland is out of the league after a while and your wings take a while to get minutes. I know this has been argued already but I think it's a stretch to say Bowen/Schrempf at 24 are capable of playing as many minutes as they do at 30 and play them effectively.

2. Even ignoring that, when you play Bowen for major minutes, it hurts the offense. Gil is a beast obviously but Kobe can do a very good job on either Gay or Schrempf and Rashard Lewis is perfect to play against Bowen because he is quick enough to play some help D in the post on Ruland and still get back.

3. This is the perfect sort of team for Al J/Dalembert defensively you can stick Dalembert on Ruland and Al J is good enough to limit Deke since he is a big body and only struggles against quicker, more offensive minded forwards. Together the bigs can shut down the lane pretty effectively against this team, both will rebound well and both can help block shots against Gay/Arenas/Schrempf who do all take it to the hoop.

I see this match up being a real grind it out game, with both teams having more trouble than usual scoring on the other.
Just going to say I love head 2 head analysis so much and hope there is more of this, especially once teams settle on an 8 or 10 man rotation.
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Old 06-23-2008, 01:44 PM   #13615
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

I want to pick the WPA in the tenth round.... because I'm a homer.
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Old 06-23-2008, 01:44 PM   #13616
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Even with the reverse snake draft, I find it imposible to compete without at least a top 20 pick.
I disagree with this. YOu could've started your team of with two superstars whereas the top picks had to take role players(Bill Laimbeer, Horace Grants) or flawed scorers(Michael Redd, Glen Rice) or injury prone superstars(Penny) with their second pick). Getting Deron Williams or Moncreif as your #2 guy is a steal imo....hell even guys like Shawn Kemp and Chris Mullin make great #2 options. Pair that with a solid first round pick(obviously I love Pierce late in the 1st) and you're off to a fine start, not to mention that you then get an early 3rd rounder.
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Old 06-23-2008, 02:22 PM   #13617
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I want to pick the WPA in the tenth round.... because I'm a homer.
Yinka Dare
Ed O'Bannon
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Old 06-23-2008, 02:36 PM   #13618
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

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I want to pick the WPA in the tenth round.... because I'm a homer.
Just an FYI - I just did a search for the lowest career PER of players that average 25 min/g and have played at least 1 full season.

The answer?

Bruce Bowen
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Old 06-23-2008, 02:58 PM   #13619
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

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Just an FYI - I just did a search for the lowest career PER of players that average 25 min/g and have played at least 1 full season.

The answer?

Bruce Bowen
Not at all surprising. If you are going to get that much playing time with an awful PER, you better be really good at some aspect of the game that PER doesn't capture.
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Old 06-23-2008, 03:11 PM   #13620
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

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Yinka Dare
Ed O'Bannon
Guy in the front.



Ban me for mentioning an undrafted hopeful. I'd take Assani over this guy.
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Old 06-23-2008, 03:38 PM   #13621
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We need picks.................
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Old 06-23-2008, 03:43 PM   #13622
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

Whose pick is it?
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Old 06-23-2008, 03:45 PM   #13623
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

Big Cat.
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Old 06-23-2008, 04:07 PM   #13624
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He hasn't signed on since the 13th which was probally his last pick.
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Old 06-23-2008, 04:18 PM   #13625
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Someone tell Biiiiig Chips to log into his other username IMO.
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