That would be a very solid whitewash, although I thought there was some controversy about Croats not being purely white.

Also, since Pierce is my favorite pick of the first round:

Pierce
Deron
Ron Artest
Lamarcus Aldridge
Ben Gordon
Brendan Haywood

Alternatively, you could take Elden Campbell for Ben Gordon and take a variety of players over Haywood who are more scoring oriented PF that haven't been drafted yet to put in off the bench.

You have truly elite wing defense, with two guys who can get steals, disrupt passing lanes, shut down their guy. You have two decent defensive bigs, and between all this you can make up for Deron's sub par defense. '

Offensively, you can run the pick n roll or pick n pop with Pierce/Deron all day, you want the ball in one of their hands all day. You can also run it with Aldridge, since he does have some range on his jumper. Get Ron Artest involved by slashing to the hoop or crashing the boards and occasionally camping the 3 line (he's a decent but not great shooter).

If you need more offense, you get Ben Gordon in and run him off screens relentlessly, and have him spread the floor when Pierce/Deron drive since they are both above average passers and can find him if he's open (and he's a deadly 3 pt shooter). I like Gordon over JR Smith since over his career he has shown he has a higher basketball IQ and better work ethic, although Nugs homers seem to insist JR Smith is getting better. With two good passers on your team, I want the guy who can play better within a system, and Gordon seems more adept for this sort of role (and his numbers suffer because he plays in such a terrible offense).

So:
-Van Exel
-Ellis
-Pippen
-Kaman
-Daugherty
- Gill

Where does my team rank? I like it, maybe not top-5 quality...but I certainly think it's in the top half.

Edit: that's Dale Ellis

Or...

Pierce
Deron
Chandler
David West
Raja Bell

Gives you a good dose of offense between West, Deron and Pierce. Bell and Pierce cover the wings very well, both can hit the open 3 so you spread the floor a little bit and let Deron and West run the pick n roll. Chandler stands around the hoop to get passes and clean up misses.

Alternatively...

Pierce
Bosh
Chandler
Butler
Devin Harris
Haywood

Only problem here is you can't spread the floor quite as much, only Pierce really has 3 range, but everyone else can hit an open jumper from closer in so teams can't pack it in too much, and you have a bunch of guys who can run the floor and a lot of steals/blocks to start some fast breaks. Team is average to very good defensively at every position. You could take Derek Fisher instead of Harris, who might be a better fit because he brings more 3 pt shooting, but I feel he's less value.

shark,

I really don't mind the Paul pick that much, and he's not the reason I dislike your team. However, you're wrong in saying Wade doesn't offer us a cautionary tale. Wade most certainly did have a season close to Paul's current year. Not quite as good, but '05-'06 was pretty damn impressive. Hell, so was the next until he got hurt.

I also admitted I made a mistake putting you in the bottom 5. I don't think you are. Bottom ten, though, probably.

It's not just the Gin Baker pick I hate, which I do hate mightily. I'm not high on Ratliff or Chuck Person, either.

I mean, leaving the first 3 rounds the same, your team could conceivably be:
Chris Paul
Terry Cummings
Rip
P.J. Brown
Hedo
and then either Chuck as your 6th, or Xavier, or Dell, or Elden Campbell (best option I think).

This is a much better team.

OR:
go with a wing option in round 4, like say RJ, or J-Rich, or Maggette, then fill the center spot in the 5th with Bogut or Okur (obv I like the first team more).

Throw in that it could be ironman Stockton instead of a risky Paul pick, and it's all looking a lot better.

edit: and while we're nitpicking, you could have had Laimbeer instead of Cummings, which I like a whole lot more. I understand the want to put a real athletic guy with Paul, but it's not like he has to run the floor. Nawlins was one of the slowest paced teams in the league this year. Not that I hate the Cummings pick or anything (great rebounder and scorer), but Lambs gives you even better rebounding and elite defense while still competent scoring.

I like this team for the next 5 years. Two real good shooters in Pippen and Ellis, who together can play pretty good D on the wings. Then you have decent D inside with above avg scoring (don't know how much you can space them out). PG is meh. I see it as a strong team, could certainly compete with most teams in the NBA today, but nothing that really blows me away. Also after 5 years it seems like you die.

Given my drinking habits...this is likely to happen in real life, too.

Teams I like a lot so far:

Victor - Amare, Mark Price, Tayshaun Prince, Ron Harper, Andrew Bogut, Glen Robinson.

This is a nice team because Price and Harper can both handle the ball very well. Between Prince and Harper your team plays very good defense, and on this squad Harper won't have the ball that long but showed that he could handle high (early on with the Cavs) or be a roll player (Bulls years). Bogut is basically the unspectacular big guy who can finish around the hoop and play some D/clean up the glass that is perfect for fitting with Amare. Price spreads the floor, runs the pick n roll with Amare, Prince is always a possible matchup nightmare. Harper can finish well and shoot pretty well and Bogut has decent hands. Good offense.

Nich - Alonzo, Buck Williams, Joe Johnson, Jason Richardson, Rajon Rondo, Devin Harris.

Yes Harris/Rondo is redundant but both are great fits for this team and against some teams you could get away with playing both for some stretches (basically against a team with a shorter SG like Raja Bell, Ben Gordon, etc.).

Zo/Buck is a really nice defensive backcourt, they clean up the glass great, play above average D and Zo is a great shot blocker. The wing guys play decent D. Not great, but they are all athletic enough that they can get some steals (very helpful) and can at least not be Peja bad. Zo and Buck inside negate that. Rondo and Harris are both above avg defensive PG.

On offense both bigs can score when given the ball, and with Joe Johnson/Harris being able to slash very well, and with Jason Richardson who you can't leave alone (pretty good 3 pt shooter and if you are in bad position can obviously handle the ball well and blow by you), it will be tough for defenses to handle your offense. JJ/Richardson can shoot well enough that Harris/Rondo lack of 3pt range doesn't hurt too bad, and you can play inside/outside with basically any combo. Also with Harris/JJ/Jason Richardson you have a really fast and athletic front court so on steals/blocks/good rebounds you can get in transition and score easily.

I like Vic's team too, but I'm underwhelmed by the Harper/Prince wing combo. Though I guess if Harper never busts his knee you got a guy who can score in bunches pretty efficiently. But if you get jumpshooting solid defender Harper.. well that's very similar to Prince. I think you suffer too much offensively with them as your wing guys.

In general, I don't think Tay was a great pick where he went (and I generally like Tay, though he gets a tad overrated occasionally).

flyingmoose - Isiah, Jermaine, Richard Jefferson, Brandon Roy, Aldridge, Danny Manning, Wally.

Didn't love either the Isiah or Jermaine picks, kinda leaves you with some problems down the line with two star players having injury issues. However, I love the later picks, all good to great value. This team doesn't play great D but you have good shot blocking presence inside and that's more important than the below avg. front court defense, although you will struggle against teams that have a bunch of good scoring options (like nichs).

Offensively though you have two great ball handlers and passers in Roy and Isiah who can also score in bunches. They can't shoot the 3 too well but you have RJ and Wally off the bench to remedy that. You don't have passing from the PF/C spots, but both are good enough offensively to take their guy one on one in a favorable match up (and both had enough range that they can play the pick n roll effectively as well as having a pretty alright post game). More importantly, both get a good amount of offensive rebounds (2.5+/game), which is very helpful considering the one flaw on this team is that you don't really have an efficient scorers besides Wally/RJ.

Hedo? I would never take Hedo...PJ I could see - but I like Ratliff over PJ and Bogut by a large margin.

I felt it necessary to take a big man in the 4th round fwiw, so a wingman was kindve out of thr question...and I felt a defensive presence wouldve suited me better than a guy like Okhur...though I dont mind him.

I was thinking - if I had taken Brad miller instead of RIP in the 3rd round...I prolly wouldve taken Nick Anderson in the 4th...and was pretty sure I was going to pick up XMan in the 5th or 6th.

so my team wouldve been:

Chris Paul
Nick Anderson
Terry Cummings
Xavier McDaniel
Brad Miller

Chuck Person on bench

edit: Missing Brad Miller in the third round really changed my team

lol

.Alex. - Kobe, Al J, Rashard Lewis, Dalembert, Hinrich, Herb Williams.

Could be, probably is, the best offense in the league. Is there anything this team can't do? Hinrich is perfect in a more limited role as the PG since he is not a primary scorer but is an effective passer and can shoot open shots. Kobe is Kobe. Lewis is a knock down 3 pt shooter who can also post up on smaller players and can take it to the hoop if the defense is not in position on him. Al J is a very efficient post player, and you can't double down on him at all with all the shooters around him. This team is miles better offensively than this Lakers team.

Defensively, meh. You rebound well, Al J and Dalembert can both block shots and together you have below average on the ball defense but passable enough. Kobe/Rashard is a pretty good wing duo, both are long and athletic and can cause problems. Hinrich also plays solid on the ball D so you end up with all guys being able to get steals and stay with their guy, and all of them are athletic/quick enough to play help D on any good post players the other team might have.

This is probably my favorite team.

I like a lot of other teams (I started listing but it's too many) but those are some good teams that I haven't seen others mention.

Alright, let me try to spark some debate with a bunch of random comments/questions. I'm probably going to bed shortly, but hopefully these can generate some good discussion, and I'll obviously be back tomorrow to discuss them:


-I said a few pages ago that Paul Pierce was my #23 ranked player, and it kind of went unnoticed. He went #39 in our draft, so I'd guess that many of you disagree with me here. Well?


-Nearly everyone has agreed that Sidney Moncrief was a steal, but how big of a steal exactly? Personally I feel as if he should've been a late 1st rounder.


-I'm looking at some of the biggest steals and trying to put together some of my favorite possible teams from different draft slots. How about:

Drafting from the #21-#25 spot you could've started off with a Scottie Pippen/Sidney Moncreif nucleus that would've been a terror defensively. Hell you even could've added AK47 in the 3rd round. It would be a bit tough since PG and C are pretty tough positions to find late and thats what you have to get now though.

Obviously since I'm high on both of them, I would've loved for the #32-40 spots to take Pierce/Deron Williams to start their team.

I love how Clark, Nicholas, and Seadood started off with two big men, and I would've loved to have had Laimbeer fall to me to pair with Duncan. Thinking along these lines, I would've loved for AC Cobra(#36) or MeBenhoe to have taken Chandler in the 3rd round(and obviously I was in favor either Deron Williams or Moncrief in the 2nd. A trio of Webber/Moncrief or Deron/Chandler OR Brand/Moncrief or Deron/Chandler would've been pretty tough to beat imo.


Looking back, for the Jordan team I'd go with:

PG Derek Harper
SG Jordan
SF Ron Artest
PF AC Green(David West is tempting here too)
C Emeka Okafor



I thought Boozer had already been drafted when you took over, no? Mullin would've been a great choice. I think you could've gone all offense and it would've been a great team to watch:

PG Brandon Roy
SG Kevin Martin
SF Mullin
PF Dirk
C Donaldson

or even taken Maggette as your 6th man in the 4th round and gone:

PG Barbosa
SG Kevin Martin
SF Mullin
PF Dirk
C Elden Campbell
6th: Maggette



I'll be honest....I have no good reason for bumping this(its from the NBA regular season thread btw) other than the fact that I didn't really know you back when it happened but now that I do, I want to brag...and you might've missed my bump of that thread.



-There have been a number of teams that I think really started out awesome, but I'm not a huge fan of the direction they took. Maybe its just that you all don't have the "all defense all the time" mindset that I have. For example I thought Shaq/Eddie Jones was as good of a start as anyone in this draft. But then I wasn't huge on the Coleman pick, I would've preferred Harper over Brandon due to defense, and Ainge and Toney aren't really good defenders....not that I think that team is bad by any stretch...I just would've loved to see it turned into a defensive powerhouse.

And yea, I don't want to continue to harp on the Antoine pick, but man you had an awesome first 4 picks imo. Nick Anderon was ok, but I think you should've gone with defense. Sucks that Bowen was taken right before you, but Raja Bell was still there. I would've gone with Bell and started: Payton, Bell, LJ, Chandler, Sheed. To be honest though, Sheed was even a reach imo, but I still like it just due to the makeup of the team. Then go with some offense off the bench with your 6th pick.

Loved the Durant pick, but he doesn't really fit in with your team. You need to surround him with young guys or guys who had really long careers, so they could peak at the same time. I would've loved the potential of:

PG Deron Williams
SG JR Smith
SF Durant
PF Bosh
C Biedrins

Thats not to say I didn't love the direction of your team before the Durant pick either. But even though I lvoe the Durant pick in general, he kinda killed that direction imo.


I love how Nicholas started off with two big men, but I think his next 4 picks are too similar, especially the Harris/Rondo one. Just hate the Rondo pick there really considering you take Harris later. You could've gone:

PG Devin Harris
SG Jason Richardson(maybe Rudy Gay)
SF Tayshaun Prince
PF Buck Williams
C Alonzo

And then there would be a number of 6th man options. You could go for a solid role player like Bowen, Posey, Raja Bell or you could go with some instant offense like JR Smith, Nick Van Exel or even an all around player like Gerald Wallace.

Shark, you have a weird team in that I don't like any of your picks....but I don't really dislike them either. I'm sorry to say that I'd actually agree with the poster who said your team is a bottom team(maybe not bottom 5 though). Its just that none of your picks have been really bad, so you've not been critisized much.

But I definitely think Stockton>Paul.

Cummings is a bit too inefficient for a big man imo.

I think Rip is overrated due to being on the Pistons. I thik AK47, Rashard Lewis, Petrovic(if he doesn't get in a car crash), or Odom would've been better there.

Vin Baker...meh

Ratliff...actually I do like this pick a lot.

Person...meh.

I dunno....maybe 5 years from now Paul will be a complete stud and we'll look back and you'll have the last laugh. But as is, I think your team is a bit weak simply because while theres no glaring back pick, theres no real great pick either and a bunch of marginal ones.

Obviously must my opinion, and I could be wrong for sure.





-Regarding my own team:

I think I'm getting downgraded for being injury prone, and its probably fair. To be honest, I wish I took Eddie Jones instead of Penny. At the time, I was realizing how scarce PGs were getting and I loved that Penny could play point. If I had known I'd luck into Harper falling into my lap later, I would've taken Jones.

PG Harper
SG Eddie Jones
SF Rodney McCray
PF AK47
C Duncan
6th(and sometimes starting and moving AK47 to SF): Outlaw

That'd be pretty strong still and longevity and health would actually be a big strength of mine then. Although I would be lacking some scoring, so maybe I would've had to have gone with a scorer instead of Outlaw.



Anyway I've rambled a ton. I'm probably dead wrong in a lot of areas here because I'm just typing off the top of my head, so go easy on me.....

Wow I feel your take on this is so wrong. Victor's offense is probably top 5 in the league, but he has the worst defense. The worst. I mean - Amare/Bogut are 2 of the worst current big defenders, put them together and "wow".

Yeah, Alex has one of my favorite teams. One of the best imo

Yeah, I think horrific big men on defense override any wing defenders. This is also part of my draft old guys to play the 4/5 strategy, no one has a clue whether they were good or not because we were all 8 years old when they retired, so you can point to the stats to show their strengths and then assume that their intangibles on defense are average, regardless of the truth.

"
-There have been a number of teams that I think really started out awesome, but I'm not a huge fan of the direction they took. Maybe its just that you all don't have the "all defense all the time" mindset that I have. For example I thought Shaq/Eddie Jones was as good of a start as anyone in this draft. But then I wasn't huge on the Coleman pick, I would've preferred Harper over Brandon due to defense, and Ainge and Toney aren't really good defenders....not that I think that team is bad by any stretch...I just would've loved to see it turned into a defensive powerhouse."

I don't get it, Ainge and Toney are coming off my bench, so whats with their defensive hate? Besides, Ainge was an alright defender.

I *do* think a bunch of people have been ignoring fit while analyzing teams. So, for the "who would I have taken if I could've done it over" path, yes, the BPA would lead to more talent but not necessarily better performance.

Bobbo, I definitely like your team overall. Its just that it was probably my favorite team after 2 rounds and now its dropped down to just "one of my top teams"...thats all.

Yeah. I meant that looking @ other players available in the first two rounds, who I might have taken. I feel like Mullin was probably the BPA there. Haven't thought about where I'd go different in round 1; there are so many possibilities.

Guys I'd just like to inform you that NorthMass on YouTube, the guy who gave us Antoine Walker's 4-point shot, dunk over Camby, etc., has two new NBA cartoons, both of which are absolutely ****ing hilarious, and I encourage you to check them out.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JYIqy...4198A&index=24

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YhNnJ...4198A&index=25

I feel that people are overrating fits when evaluating teams and looking at the overall picture a little too much. For instance, Xorbie cited Nich’s Team. On paper, it looks god for the reason he mentioned (tough I’m not as sold as he is)
However, this team would probably get destroyed by steroid’s team, simply due to the Jordan Factor, even tough Steroids team looks a little dysfonctionnal.(Jordan’steam would probably beat a good portion of the teams listed as best)
If we’re evaluating the job done by the Manager given the circumstances, fit and the overall direction of the team are deciding factors.
If we’re trying to determine which team would be the best, it’s hard to overrate talent. Even with the reverse snake draft, I find it imposible to compete without at least a top 20 pick.

Defense is definitely overrated.
The purpose of defense in Basketball is to make it harder to score, not to prevent others from scoring, because you cannot do it. For that reason, the difference between a good defense and a great defense doesn’t come close to the difference between good offence and great offense.
Defensively, your main purpose in this draft should be to solid enough to not get murdered, but you’re foolish if you think that you’re going to really stop the top offensive teams.
The all for defense mindset is correct in the NBA, not in our league.
The Spurs have had so much success defensively in recent years because they were facing teams that did not have the weapons to overcome their defense. The Spurs would never hold Alex’s team under 90 points.
Basically, to have a truly dominating defensive team (that is a team that would be as dominant in our league as the Spurs have been in the nba), you’ll have to line up Payton/Jordan/Pippen/Duncan/ Mutumbo or something like that, and that’s obviously very tough to do.
That’s why I think no offense defensive specialist like Bruce Bowen are tremendously overrated in this draft.
Bruce Bowen can not shut down Kobe by himself, he’s going to need help; but if everyone of Kobe’s team-mates going to be an offensive mismatch(which is almost the case for Alex’steam) your defensive scheme is going to be severly compromised and your losing a ton of value by picking defensive specialists.