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Old 06-22-2008, 01:00 PM   #13476
Assani Fisher
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

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Originally Posted by EPiPeN11 View Post
This is why you can't always look at the stat sheet and actually have to watch the games to see the improvement.
.
Haha, I knew it was only a matter of time for this argument to come back.

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Old 06-22-2008, 01:01 PM   #13477
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

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Also Bobbo, Franchise, Assani and all the others who said Perk's foul rate was the reason he didn't get more minutes, care to admit u were wrong (and the real reason is obv Doc) because Perkins only fouled out of 3 games all of this year, and even less last year...
bump for assani who seems to have skipped over this part
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Old 06-22-2008, 01:02 PM   #13478
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

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Haha, I knew it was only a matter of time for this argument to come back.

So knowing how well someone plays the pick and roll defense and plays 1v1 defense always shows up in the stat sheet then correct? If so show me a stat that accurately shows this, I am very curious.
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Old 06-22-2008, 01:09 PM   #13479
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

1. You do realize that when a starter gets two quick fouls in the 1st quarter hes usually pulled, right? So while Perk may "only" foul out 3 times, it still has affected his playing time many other times.

2. Its no coincidence that Perkins "improved" his defense drastically as soon as KG joined the team.

3. Haywood>Perk this year. Again you're forgetting to take teamates into consideration when evaluating them....either that or you're way underrating its importance for role players(star players are less affected imo by teamates).
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Old 06-22-2008, 01:11 PM   #13480
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

btw I find it funny that I like most of your picks yet I still seem to argue with you about them. Its like you can't take any criticism at all. I've said all along that Perk was a fine pick. Hes just not perfect(nobody is at this stage of the draft), so when I point out these imperfections it doesn't mean that I hate the pick.
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Old 06-22-2008, 01:13 PM   #13481
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

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1. You do realize that when a starter gets two quick fouls in the 1st quarter hes usually pulled, right? So while Perk may "only" foul out 3 times, it still has affected his playing time many other times.

2. Its no coincidence that Perkins "improved" his defense drastically as soon as KG joined the team.

3. Haywood>Perk this year. Again you're forgetting to take teamates into consideration when evaluating them....either that or you're way underrating its importance for role players(star players are less affected imo by teamates).
1. He doesn't get two quick fouls often in the first quarter though. And even when he does, yes of course he is "pulled" but then a lot of times he is not put back in later on because Doc is a moron

2. Um yes it is, if you actually watched the games this year u'd see KG didn't help Perk out that much at all, KG didn't help Perk increase his mobility on his pick and roll defense (and defend pick and roll D as well, infact Thibadeau helped out Perk more than KG did), nor did KG come on double teams when Perk was guarding the best teams offensive bigman (infact Perk rarley got help from double teams).

3. No def not, Perks defense is much much better than Haywoods, rebounding is roughly the same, and offensive game slight edge to Haywood but nothing drastic at all. And even then, in this league if you are feeding the ball in the post to Haywood you are going to fail in this league.

Last edited by EPiPeN11; 06-22-2008 at 01:21 PM.
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Old 06-22-2008, 01:16 PM   #13482
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

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btw I find it funny that I like most of your picks yet I still seem to argue with you about them. Its like you can't take any criticism at all. I've said all along that Perk was a fine pick. Hes just not perfect(nobody is at this stage of the draft), so when I point out these imperfections it doesn't mean that I hate the pick.
Huh? I accept valid crticism like Perk has no real ability to create his shot effectively (even though ur great TS% stats show otherwise), it's just when you try to make claims which are wrong, like fouls are the main reason Perk isn't playing (when it's not, it's Doc) or that Haywood > Perk or that KG is the reason Perk is considered a very good/great defender that I argue with you.
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Old 06-22-2008, 01:19 PM   #13483
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

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So knowing how well someone plays the pick and roll defense and plays 1v1 defense always shows up in the stat sheet then correct? If so show me a stat that accurately shows this, I am very curious.
bump for Assani, because I am very curious where I can see these stats.
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Old 06-22-2008, 01:19 PM   #13484
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

Maybe Doc doesn't play him b/c he isn't very good?
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Old 06-22-2008, 01:22 PM   #13485
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

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Maybe Doc doesn't play him b/c he isn't very good?
um no, Doc doesn't play him because hes an idiot, this is the same Doc who played Sam "the mole" Cassell and PJ Brown over players who I can't name yet because they haven't been drafted but are clearly better.

This is the same Doc who played a certian undersized PG who couldn't shoot alongside Rondo last year (yes he played 2 PG's on the floor together who both couldn't shoot, hence the Bill Simmons comment about 3 pg's in one of his articles), and a certain undersized SG at PF at times last year at well.
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Old 06-22-2008, 01:28 PM   #13486
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

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Originally Posted by EPiPeN11 View Post
Huh? I accept valid crticism like Perk has no real ability to create his shot effectively (even though ur great TS% stats show otherwise)
True shooting doesn't show this at all.
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Old 06-22-2008, 01:28 PM   #13487
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

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True shooting doesn't show this at all.
I know it doesn't, but some people on here seem to believe it does.
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Old 06-22-2008, 01:42 PM   #13488
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

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I know it doesn't, but some people on here seem to believe it does.
No one thinks this, everyone knows that at a minimum you have to look at usage rate in addition to TS% to see whether someone is able to efficiently create their own shot. But I guess if you want to make everyone know how much smarter you are than Assani, misrepresenting his arguments makes sense.
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Old 06-22-2008, 01:44 PM   #13489
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

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No one thinks this, everyone knows that at a minimum you have to look at usage rate in addition to TS% to see whether someone is able to efficiently create their own shot. But I guess if you want to make everyone know how much smarter you are than Assani, misrepresenting his arguments makes sense.
I love how I made 3 pages of arguments yet u nitpicked one point I making which was somewhat of a joke because you love to troll me while ignoring all my arguments, do you disagree with any of my other points I made recently or do you agree with them?
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Old 06-22-2008, 01:47 PM   #13490
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

Like I said when the pick was originally made, I like Perk and was hoping he would fall to me later in the round, but your argument style is beyond annoying, it's not like that was the first time you've done something like that.
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Old 06-22-2008, 01:48 PM   #13491
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

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Like I said when the pick was originally made, I like Perk and was hoping he would fall to me later in the round, but your argument style is beyond annoying, it's not like that was the first time you've done something like that.
Fair enough
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Old 06-22-2008, 03:51 PM   #13492
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

KG's mere presence on defense has benefited Perkins greatly. He doesn't need to help him with double teams to actually benefit him.

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2. Um yes it is, if you actually watched the games this year u'd see KG didn't help Perk out that much at all, KG didn't help Perk increase his mobility on his pick and roll defense (and defend pick and roll D as well, infact Thibadeau helped out Perk more than KG did), nor did KG come on double teams when Perk was guarding the best teams offensive bigman (infact Perk rarley got help from double teams).
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Old 06-22-2008, 04:12 PM   #13493
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

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KG's mere presence on defense has benefited Perkins greatly. He doesn't need to help him with double teams to actually benefit him.
I realized it helped out Perkins but u guys are greatly over exagerating how much it did help. KG helped out our guards/sf a lot more than he helped out Perkins because his greatest aspect on D is stopping guards penetration.

And you guys don't realize Perkins helped out KG's defense too. Perkins for one allowed KG to take the weaker PF/C and roam a lot more since KG is a lot better at help defense than he is at 1v1 post defense. Just look at what happened when Perk was gone for game 5, Gasol had his best game of the series and got KG into foul trouble because KG had to guard him. Perkins gave KG that physical very good/great post defender he has never had before.

Again KG's Twolves teams were never even close to as elite on defense as these Celtics teams, you guys are giving KG way too much credit like always.

You guys act as if KG made Perkins into a very good/great defender, if this is the case, why hasn't all the other bigmen KG played with been even close to Perkins (since Perkins sucks anyway) Why wasn't PJ Brown nearly as effective as Perkins (Yes I realize he's old, but he was still playing with the magical KG as well). What about the other bigmen on the Celtics who haven't been drafted, why haven't they magically become very good/great defenders? What about all the bigmen KG played with on the Twolves (I can't name them cause they haven't been drafted)? Why weren't they considered very good/great defenders?

Also my team has great defense around Perkins as well, you act as if I am putting Perkins on a terrible defensive team, he will be playing with Billups, Raja Bell, Deng, McHale all very good/great defenders. Heck my team by the time it is done will be a BETTER defensive team than this year's Celtics who are one of the greatest defenses of all time.

Last edited by EPiPeN11; 06-22-2008 at 04:40 PM.
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Old 06-22-2008, 04:16 PM   #13494
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

While KG has always been a very good defender,he is definitely not the Duncan/Mutumbo type who makes you great by his sheer presence.
This Celtics teams was great defensively because it was a collection of good to very good defenders(Rondo,Pierce, Posey, Garnett...).
Perkins was one of themand he did not become good defensively because of KG, though his stats like Drtg sure did.
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Old 06-22-2008, 04:30 PM   #13495
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

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While KG has always been a very good defender,he is definitely not the Duncan/Mutumbo type who makes you great by his sheer presence.
This Celtics teams was great defensively because it was a collection of good to very good defenders(Rondo,Pierce, Posey, Garnett...).
Perkins was one of themand he did not become good defensively because of KG, though his stats like Drtg sure did.
Yea exactly, and even then people like Duncan/Mutumbo didn't magically make average/slightly above average defensive bigmen into very good/great defenders. People are ridiculously over exagerating the help KG gave to Perkins and taking way too much credit away from Perkins.
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Old 06-22-2008, 04:49 PM   #13496
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

haha
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Old 06-22-2008, 04:52 PM   #13497
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

Guys just stop responding to epis posts if you don't want to drag this on.
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Old 06-22-2008, 04:55 PM   #13498
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

Quote:
Originally Posted by EPiPeN11 View Post
So knowing how well someone plays the pick and roll defense and plays 1v1 defense always shows up in the stat sheet then correct? If so show me a stat that accurately shows this, I am very curious.

Quote:
Originally Posted by EPiPeN11 View Post
1. He doesn't get two quick fouls often in the first quarter though. And even when he does, yes of course he is "pulled" but then a lot of times he is not put back in later on because Doc is a moron

2. Um yes it is, if you actually watched the games this year u'd see KG didn't help Perk out that much at all, KG didn't help Perk increase his mobility on his pick and roll defense (and defend pick and roll D as well, infact Thibadeau helped out Perk more than KG did), nor did KG come on double teams when Perk was guarding the best teams offensive bigman (infact Perk rarley got help from double teams).

3. No def not, Perks defense is much much better than Haywoods, rebounding is roughly the same, and offensive game slight edge to Haywood but nothing drastic at all. And even then, in this league if you are feeding the ball in the post to Haywood you are going to fail in this league.
Bumped for Assani
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Old 06-22-2008, 05:08 PM   #13499
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

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Guys just stop responding to epis posts if you don't want to drag this on.
think I'll follow this advice for now. Epeen, you're right, I'm 100% wrong here, Perkins is a great defender and a fabulous pick. You win.
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Old 06-22-2008, 05:13 PM   #13500
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

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think I'll follow this advice for now. Epeen, you're right, I'm 100% wrong here, Perkins is a great defender and a fabulous pick. You win.
Funny cause you realized u were wrong and now u try to come off sarcastic in order to save face and not have to admit u were wrong (and don't act like ur admitting u are wrong, we all know ur being sarcastic).

If you really thought u were right, u would have continued to argue (since u have done it all along in this thread, and this argument isn't even dragged out)
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