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Old 06-20-2008, 08:37 PM   #13301
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

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Originally Posted by Assani Fisher View Post
For his career hes averaged 5.1 fouls per every 36 minutes played.
He was a huge foul box the first 3 seasons (6.2, 6.4, 5.4 PF's per 36 mpg) and the last 2 he cut it down to 4.9 and 4.6 per 36.

He is also 23 so it's not like I get him at any of those first seasons (or even last year), I get him for next year and he has shown he can stay out of foul trouble enough to play at least 30 mpg if not slightly more (Doc is the main reason Perk doesn't play, not fouls).
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Old 06-20-2008, 08:39 PM   #13302
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

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great insight i'd def argue Perkins is better than Campbell, Herb Williams, and Bo Outlaw
Lets face it: You and I were both pretty much just looking for defense with the ability to clean up the glass and finish on offense if you're left open or get an offensive rebound.

If you want to say that Perkins is better offensively then thats fine, I won't argue. However, as I said, we were mostly looking for defense there. And imo Bogart Outlaw is a better defender by far. I think you're way underestimating the foul issue. Great defenders don't foul a lot, and they especially don't foul a lot if they don't get blocks/steals.
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Old 06-20-2008, 08:41 PM   #13303
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

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Lets face it: You and I were both pretty much just looking for defense with the ability to clean up the glass and finish on offense if you're left open or get an offensive rebound.

If you want to say that Perkins is better offensively then thats fine, I won't argue. However, as I said, we were mostly looking for defense there. And imo Bogart Outlaw is a better defender by far. I think you're way underestimating the foul issue. Great defenders don't foul a lot, and they especially don't foul a lot if they don't get blocks/steals.
Disagree about Bo Outlaw being a much better defender than Perkins and disagree about the foul issue since Perk has cut it down. And you realize Perkins has a lot more blocks per 36 than Outlaw right (2.4 for Perk, 1.5 for Outlaw)

And also a good amount of Perkins fouls are on the offensive end (either setting picks, or pushing people for offensive rebounds). He also picks up a good amount of BS calls on the defensive end (more so than any player i've watched probably cause he complains a ton). He also almost always guards the other teams best bigman out of the PF/C (allowing KG to roam), so he is naturally going to foul more guarding other teams great players.
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Old 06-20-2008, 08:41 PM   #13304
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

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Originally Posted by SHARK DOCTOR View Post
Hakeem at 3 or 4....its obvious the top two being MJ and Shaq...but I think its debatable between Magic and Keem for the number 3 spot and could go either way depending on the GM and their basic strategy for building their franchise. The consensus usually is "draft big"...but Magic being Magic - he could easily be the #4 pick here.

Regardless of whether hes picked at the 3rd or 4th spot - I do think Keem is the best center not named Shaq in this draft. Pound for pound - the most skilled and complete big man Ive ever seen in my lifetime. He was rediculously athletic and I dont think his stats (though they were great), told the full story to what Hakeem brought to the table.

(DRob is a close second in the race for most athletic Centers ever imo)

Even if you're counting Amare as a PF, how is Hakeem more athletic than Dwight Howard?
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Old 06-20-2008, 08:43 PM   #13305
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

hes not.
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Old 06-20-2008, 08:49 PM   #13306
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

I just think that Perkins looked a lot better due to all of a sudden having Pierce/Allen/KG on his team this year. Look at his numbers each year(I won't include his first year when he only played 35 minutes total):

TS%: 51.5, 54.8, 51.8, 63.1
DRtg: 102, 103, 105, 97


Now I understand that players improve their first few years in the league, but this huge improvement is definitely aided by the players around him. I'd rather have a guy like Outlaw who has proven to be able to do it regardless of who is around him.

And again, I'm not discussing all around offensive game or anything, as I'm assuming we both were just looking for a role player to play great interior D and be efficient on offense.

Much like with many of your picks and the arguments I've been in with you: I don't dislike your pick one bit. Its a solid pick and good value. However, you seem to ignore your players weaknesses or sweep them under the rug. For example, you want to claim that Perkins rebounds were hurt by his teamates this year, yet you ignore the fact that he was extremely inefficient in 06-07 when the team sucked but was helped immensely this year by his teamates.
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Old 06-20-2008, 08:53 PM   #13307
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

rofl @ picking K Perkins now or in the entire draft for that matter.
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Old 06-20-2008, 08:54 PM   #13308
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

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Originally Posted by Assani Fisher View Post
I just think that Perkins looked a lot better due to all of a sudden having Pierce/Allen/KG on his team this year. Look at his numbers each year(I won't include his first year when he only played 35 minutes total):

TS%: 51.5, 54.8, 51.8, 63.1
DRtg: 102, 103, 105, 97


Now I understand that players improve their first few years in the league, but this huge improvement is definitely aided by the players around him. I'd rather have a guy like Outlaw who has proven to be able to do it regardless of who is around him.

And again, I'm not discussing all around offensive game or anything, as I'm assuming we both were just looking for a role player to play great interior D and be efficient on offense.

Much like with many of your picks and the arguments I've been in with you: I don't dislike your pick one bit. Its a solid pick and good value. However, you seem to ignore your players weaknesses or sweep them under the rug. For example, you want to claim that Perkins rebounds were hurt by his teamates this year, yet you ignore the fact that he was extremely inefficient in 06-07 when the team sucked but was helped immensely this year by his teamates.
I agree it might have been slightly "aided" on defense but I disagree that it was aided by a lot. Perk improved this year on D because he increased his mobility, and learned how to play much better post D. Like I said, when he was defending people in the post, the Celtics rarley doubled, so it's not like they helped him out a whole lot.

I didn't ignore the fact he was extremely inefficent than was helped this year by his teammates on offense (infact I said that in my writeup). I will agree that is where he is helped by far the most, on the offensive end. But remember he will be playing with great offensive players on my team as well, who will help him out too.

However i'm glad you ignored my points about his blocks, and fouling on the offensive end as well as other things.
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Old 06-20-2008, 09:05 PM   #13309
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

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rofl @ picking K Perkins now or in the entire draft for that matter.
rofl @ thinking this (especially the 2nd part)
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Old 06-20-2008, 09:07 PM   #13310
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

You think if we draft after last season perkins is picked?
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Old 06-20-2008, 09:10 PM   #13311
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

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You think if we draft after last season perkins is picked?
Nope, it's called improvement.

Do you think if we drafted at the start of 2 years ago Al Jefferson is picked in the 2nd round? How about Tyson Chandler 2 years ago going this high? How about Andre Iggy 2 years ago going high? How about Granger? etc.
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Old 06-20-2008, 09:19 PM   #13312
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

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WTF list:


Worthy 37
Bynum 52
Marbury 68
Battier 89
Horford 101
Tarpley 204
Walker 215
Updated Perkins
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Old 06-20-2008, 09:20 PM   #13313
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

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Updated Perkins
Great argument I don't think you or vixicator could be any more ignorant
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Old 06-20-2008, 09:25 PM   #13314
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

Im more ignorant, you picked him in the 7th, he's at best a 9/10 round pick. I know you love defenders and I know there aren't a ton of great defensive post players left but he's pretty bad. Like theres 1 guy in particular that is retired that is a million times better than him.
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Old 06-20-2008, 09:27 PM   #13315
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

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Im more ignorant, you picked him in the 7th, he's at best a 9/10 round pick.
uh no he is imo better than Herb Williams, Campbell, and Outlaw and if he isn't its very close.

How many bigmen in this draft ever put up a DRTG of 97 in a year and provide not only very good (possibly great) 1v1 post defense, but very good (possibly great) pick and roll defense as well?

On your edit, i'm pretty sure I know who he is, and he was undersized for a center (and I needed a center since I don't want McHale playing center). Perk allows me to guard more of the bigger centers more effectivley.

And did you call Perkins pretty bad? Really?
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Old 06-20-2008, 09:30 PM   #13316
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

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uh no he is imo better than Herb Williams, Campbell, and Outlaw and if he isn't its very close.

How many bigmen in this draft ever put up a DRTG of 97 in a year and provide not only very good (possibly great) 1v1 post defense, but very good (possibly great) pick and roll defense as well?

On your edit, i'm pretty sure I know who he is, and he was undersized for a center (and I needed a center since I don't want McHale playing center). Perk allows me to guard more of the bigger centers more effectivley.
Maybe it's b/c he plays on Boston, has KG playing next to him, Rondo and Pierce out in front. Also as a team they were at 98.9 so he's slightly better than average on his team. Last eyar he was about average for centers in the league when he had noone around him.
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Old 06-20-2008, 09:30 PM   #13317
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

lol at Josh Smith overrated defensively granted I definately reached for him but to call him overrated is just lol

i guess 3bpg and 1.5 steals a game plus 8 boards a game is not very good

and 8th in DWS this year behind

duncan
d12
kg
camby
pierce
sheed
lbj

yea hes a scrub
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Old 06-20-2008, 09:32 PM   #13318
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

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Maybe it's b/c he plays on Boston, has KG playing next to him, Rondo and Pierce out in front. Also as a team they were at 98.9 so he's slightly better than average on his team. Last eyar he was about average for centers in the league when he had noone around him.
He also improved a ton on defense from last year (ask anyone who actually saw him play a lot).

You guys overstate how much KG/Rondo/Pierce helped him, yes they helped him a little obv, but he helped out those guys as well, and he also rarley got help when he was defending the best PF/C on the other team.
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Old 06-20-2008, 09:32 PM   #13319
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

In the breadth of everyone available and everyone picked yes Perkins is pretty damn bad.
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Old 06-20-2008, 09:32 PM   #13320
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

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lol at Josh Smith overrated defensively granted I definately reached for him but to call him overrated is just lol

i guess 3bpg and 1.5 steals a game plus 8 boards a game is not very good

my bad
It is in yahoo fantasy sports, but his 1v1 defense is not as great as his stats suggest (he is a great help defender though).
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Old 06-20-2008, 09:34 PM   #13321
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

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He also improved a ton on defense from last year (ask anyone who actually saw him play a lot).

You guys overstate how much KG/Rondo/Pierce helped him, yes they helped him a little obv, but he helped out those guys as well, and he also rarley got help when he was defending the best PF/C on the other team.
You have to look at the team when it comes to D, you point out 97 as a rediculous rating but the year before it's 105 with a crappy team. You really think he got that much better in 1 year, ROFLMAO. I know he's a good defensive center I just don't think he's that good nor do I think he would have been picked anytime soon. I'm not going to give credit to the rest of the team but if you fail to see a huge correlation between the players they added in the offseason and his huge improvement in DRTG, you can't be serious.
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Old 06-20-2008, 09:37 PM   #13322
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

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uh no he is imo better than Herb Williams, Campbell, and Outlaw and if he isn't its very close.

How many bigmen in this draft ever put up a DRTG of 97 in a year and provide not only very good (possibly great) 1v1 post defense, but very good (possibly great) pick and roll defense as well?

On your edit, i'm pretty sure I know who he is, and he was undersized for a center (and I needed a center since I don't want McHale playing center). Perk allows me to guard more of the bigger centers more effectivley.

And did you call Perkins pretty bad? Really?

I agree with ePip here that at the worst hes close to those guys, although I'd really like to see him on a bad team again to see just how much of the improvement was due to his supporting cast.
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Old 06-20-2008, 09:38 PM   #13323
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

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WTF list:


Worthy 37
Bynum 52
Marbury 68
Battier 89
Horford 101
Tarpley 204
Walker 215
Need to add Reggie Lewis, Ransey, and now Perkins to this list.
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Old 06-20-2008, 09:38 PM   #13324
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

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You have to look at the team when it comes to D, you point out 97 as a rediculous rating but the year before it's 105 with a crappy team. You really think he got that much better in 1 year, ROFLMAO. I know he's a good defensive center I just don't think he's that good nor do I think he would have been picked anytime soon. I'm not going to give credit to the rest of the team but if you fail to see a huge correlation between the players they added in the offseason and his huge improvement in DRTG, you can't be serious.
He was also playing hurt for the entire year last year (Plantar facitus sp) which hurt his D obviously. And yes he did drastically improve (he was healthy, increased his mobility a ton, and learned how to play much better 1v1 post defense), just like other players drastically improve in different areas.

Seriously ask anyone who has followed the Celtics this year if Perkins drastically improved his defense and I bet at least 80-90 percent of them say yes.

And I traded up to pick him because I thought either GKA or Tbach would have taken him.
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Old 06-20-2008, 09:39 PM   #13325
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

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I agree with ePip here that at the worst hes close to those guys, although I'd really like to see him on a bad team again to see just how much of the improvement was due to his supporting cast.
Just wait 3 years.
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