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Old 06-20-2008, 01:35 AM   #13176
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

Love the Dell Curry pick. If Elliot had gone I was going to take him with my sixth rounder and I figured he'd be gone, but was hoping he fell to me next round. Nice pick.
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Old 06-20-2008, 01:51 AM   #13177
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

Dell Curry makes your team very complete Clark. Love the pick.
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Old 06-20-2008, 02:03 AM   #13178
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion



You took the wrong one IMO.
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Old 06-20-2008, 03:40 AM   #13179
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

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Originally Posted by tdarko View Post
Sorry that hurt your feelers and you had to try the sarcastic route. You want analysis, um ok:

Bo couldn't shoot, he could barely hit the goal with his free throws, for a post he wasn't a great rebounder. I remember him being a great shot blocker, and a pretty good 1on1 and help defender, other than that he was a liability.
It didn't hurt my feelings one bit; I just think blanket statements with no argument to back it up is really meaningless. My feelings are never hurt by disagreement; Rather I welcome it for the sake of discussion. Ok, lets take your statements one at a time here:


"Bo couldn't shoot"

Agreed completely. If Outlaw never takes a single jumpshot on my team, I'd be fine by that. Offensively, I just wanted someone who could finish a high percentage of the time when given open dunks/layups. I actually looked at quite a few guys here, many of whom actually had more offensive game than Bo but were used to being more involved on offense. Throughout their entire careers these guys took quite a few shots per game and didn't hit at that high of a percentage. I could've chosen one of them and tried to change their games, but I think its much better to take someone who is already proven at the role I want. Plus the entire "His efficiency will improve with lower usage" is speculative and only true in some cases. And even still, Bogart could finish at the rim as well as any of them, which as I've said is all I wanted offensively from this pick.


"he could barely hit the goal with his free throws"

Its true that hes not a great FT shooter(although you're obviously using hyperbole as there have been quite a few worse FT shooters already selected). However, even his poor FT shooting didn't stop his overall efficiency(TS) from being excellent, and thats all I care about. Clearly if my team is up late and the other team is fouling then he won't be in the game. Keep in mind, this is my 6th man...a role player. I'm looking to fill certain roles here, not to find a great all around player. I tried to find great all around players with my starters(although to be fair, I did say that I will occassionally start him to help AK47 find the best matchup).



"for a post he wasn't a great rebounder."

If you define "great" as one of the best in the league, then of course not. However, you're making it out to be that hes not a good rebounder and thats just not true imo. For his career he averaged 7.7 rebounds per 36 minutes, and he played until he was 36 years old(and came in the league as a 22 year old).

By comparison Elden Campbell and Herb Williams were just taken a few picks before me. They averaged 5.9 and 6.2 rebounds per 36 minutes respectively.



"I remember him being a great shot blocker, and a pretty good 1on1 and help defender"

Agreed completely. Post defense is just so valuable imo. Combined with Tim Duncan, my team is pretty stacked here. Add in AK47 providing help side and its going to be very tough to drive on my team.



"other than that he was a liability."

No, not at all. In fact, hes the exact opposite of a liability. Hes the type of guy who doesn't hurt you at all. He shoots a high %, rebounds fairly well, is a very good defender, was a captain several times so I'd say good locker room presence. How on earth do you figure hes a liability. A liability would be someone who you can just leave open on offense or someone who the other team will attack on defense. Bogart can finish too well to leave him open on offense and he can crash the offensive boards as evidenced by his 2.9 offensive rebounds per 36 minutes over his career.

In fact, I think that if you wanted to critisize this pick you should say that he lacks upside and is completely unspectacular. A liability? Thats totally wrong imo.
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Old 06-20-2008, 03:44 AM   #13180
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

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god i love bo outlaw, im remember him with orlando, and penny, those were some fun teams. I remember him bringing up the ball on offense on more then one occasion. Point-Power-Forward ftw.
To be completely honest with you, I was very unaware of any playmaking skills he might have. I already have a ton of playmakers: AK47 and McCray can easily be defined as point forwards, my SG(Penny) has played tons of time at the PG spot, and Duncan is one of the best passing big men in the game. I intentionally took a bunch of good passers early, but if Outlaw happens to be one as well then thats a pretty sweet bonus....love good team chemistry, unselfishness, and overall good court awareness from everyone.
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Old 06-20-2008, 04:28 AM   #13181
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

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Herb Williams
I remember Herb because IIRC he was my first basketball card ever. (Never got too many of them, but he was the first!) To me he's the type of guy that is not *quite* a dime-a-dozen, but would've been around for another round. He's a decent defender but by no means great, his success was def. a by-product of playing with guys like Ewing. In fact, his defense *improved* considerably in his later years... When he was a Knick. Alex, I love your team, but I don't like Herb for your team if that makes sense. Herb can't run the floor, can't finish or create a shot, and wasn't even a great "scrapper" type. (6.2% ORB/1.5 ORBG is very average) I'm very "meh" on this one.

Elden Campbell
I really like Elden Campbell. Not because he's goofy (like D102 ) but because he's a fine player. I remember him on the Hornets when they were pretty good - such a strong defensive force. Someone compared Herb to Elden, and the difference is actually quite severe. One is an above average defender, the other is borderline elite. Double checking rebounds though, it's shocking Elden @ 6'11 only grabbed 8.5 a game per 36. Even still, I like him in your big rotation, especially as you don't need scoring out of him.
I was the one who made the comparison because I was debating between the two. I guess this is where not seeing them play (well, I remember Elden somewhat) hurts me since they had similar metrics so I went with the one who seemed more durable when in reality they might be more different than I thought.
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Old 06-20-2008, 05:25 AM   #13182
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

Ew with the bo outlaw pick.

I guess you were trying to compensate with the risky pick of penny with some safe picks, bo is way to much of a safe pick. This guy will be a complete neutral if not minus on a team like this. I can see his value as an 8th man or something to relieve someone in foul trouble, but not as a possible starter. Do you realize you will be playing 4 on 5 on offense when hes on the floor. You cant afford that in a league with this much talent. I mean its not as bad as the bynum pick but still pretty bad.


Love the dell curry pick for clarks team, but with each pick that he does mookie sticks out more and more, god I hate him for his team.
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Old 06-20-2008, 05:27 AM   #13183
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

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Originally Posted by Assani Fisher View Post
To be completely honest with you, I was very unaware of any playmaking skills he might have. I already have a ton of playmakers: AK47 and McCray can easily be defined as point forwards, my SG(Penny) has played tons of time at the PG spot, and Duncan is one of the best passing big men in the game. I intentionally took a bunch of good passers early, but if Outlaw happens to be one as well then thats a pretty sweet bonus....love good team chemistry, unselfishness, and overall good court awareness from everyone.
LOL if he ever brought the ball up the court is was like what shaq did a few times, with the coach yelling stopppppp ! from the sidelines.

Hes a poor mans Ben Wallace. With better hands, but worse defense. Good energy, good teammate, overall good guy. Just 2 rounds too high.
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Old 06-20-2008, 05:42 AM   #13184
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

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Ew with the bo outlaw pick.

I guess you were trying to compensate with the risky pick of penny with some safe picks, bo is way to much of a safe pick. This guy will be a complete neutral if not minus on a team like this. I can see his value as an 8th man or something to relieve someone in foul trouble, but not as a possible starter. Do you realize you will be playing 4 on 5 on offense when hes on the floor. You cant afford that in a league with this much talent. I mean its not as bad as the bynum pick but still pretty bad.


Love the dell curry pick for clarks team, but with each pick that he does mookie sticks out more and more, god I hate him for his team.
4 on 5 on offense? The guy EXTREMELY EFFICIENTLY adds in 7 or 8 points off the bench. Thats exactly what I'm looking for here. And you cannot double off him because hes a very good finisher at the rim. Moreover, he gets his fair share of offensive rebounds.
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Old 06-20-2008, 05:44 AM   #13185
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

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LOL if he ever brought the ball up the court is was like what shaq did a few times, with the coach yelling stopppppp ! from the sidelines.

Hes a poor mans Ben Wallace. With better hands, but worse defense. Good energy, good teammate, overall good guy. Just 2 rounds too high.
Ben Wallace career TS%: 47.4%
Bogart Outlaw career TS%: 57.2%


Ben Wallace is a complete disaster on offense. He can't do anything really. Outlaw can finish EXTREMELY well at the rim.

I'm really not understanding this "OMG he can't score in bulk so he must be bad" line of thought here. Teams only score around 100 points per game. Plus my team is going to be pretty slow paced. I can run my offense through Duncan's post game, I can run clear outs/post ups for Penny, I can let AK47 or McCray play the point forward role and create, and Harper is an excellent all around offensive player. The one thing I am lacking is better 3 point shooters, and I'll look to address that later on. However, I don't really need another option for scoring there. I think a scrapper type of guy is perfect here.
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Old 06-20-2008, 09:16 AM   #13186
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

Everytime you call him "Bogart" I hate him more and more.
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Old 06-20-2008, 09:38 AM   #13187
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

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I understand that, but he got drafted at 22 and started to play well at 27, just a comment on why I didn't take him not that he's horrible or anything. I would have loved to draft him next round, guess I thought he wasn't as great.

Ahh I see. Well late 6th round I figured he was a good pick and that he wouldn't be around by the time I picked in the 7th.
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Old 06-20-2008, 09:39 AM   #13188
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

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That's a pretty sweet write-up, Chips.
Thanks dude.
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Old 06-20-2008, 10:00 AM   #13189
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

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By comparison Elden Campbell and Herb Williams were just taken a few picks before me. They averaged 5.9 and 6.2 rebounds per 36 minutes respectively.
Not to be a nit, but my boy Elden averaged 8.5 rebounds per 36, and Herb averaged 8.2
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Old 06-20-2008, 10:50 AM   #13190
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

2 things: (looks like seadood hit on the 2nd thing anyway as I cruise through the following)

1. I love that assani keeps saying "bogurt."
2.
Quote:
If you define "great" as one of the best in the league, then of course not. However, you're making it out to be that hes not a good rebounder and thats just not true imo. For his career he averaged 7.7 rebounds per 36 minutes, and he played until he was 36 years old(and came in the league as a 22 year old).

By comparison Elden Campbell and Herb Williams were just taken a few picks before me. They averaged 5.9 and 6.2 rebounds per 36 minutes respectively.
uhh, not true. Both Elden and Herb, neither were good rebounders, averaged MORE than Bo. (8.5/8.2) So, don't understand the incorrect cherry picking here. I think tdarko's criticism is by and large accurate of "bogurt".

also, was playing poker all night, so I'm going to PM my pick in the event it's up to me (2 spots away) to seadood.
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Old 06-20-2008, 10:54 AM   #13191
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

Like the Xavier pick. He was top 15 player available on my list. Also, clark, wtf - I pmed you, wrote in this thread x2, etc - please edit the initial thread to include my writeup!
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Old 06-20-2008, 10:56 AM   #13192
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

wellp, just PMed horizon, if he's online i'm going to not goto bed yet so i can make my pick
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Old 06-20-2008, 11:04 AM   #13193
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

I think the Dell Curry pick is A+ value at this point. Several shooters were taken recently before him too, I was wondering if everyone forgot about him.

D
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Old 06-20-2008, 11:10 AM   #13194
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

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Originally Posted by Assani Fisher View Post
Ben Wallace career TS%: 47.4%
Bogart Outlaw career TS%: 57.2%


Ben Wallace is a complete disaster on offense. He can't do anything really. Outlaw can finish EXTREMELY well at the rim.

I'm really not understanding this "OMG he can't score in bulk so he must be bad" line of thought here. Teams only score around 100 points per game. Plus my team is going to be pretty slow paced. I can run my offense through Duncan's post game, I can run clear outs/post ups for Penny, I can let AK47 or McCray play the point forward role and create, and Harper is an excellent all around offensive player. The one thing I am lacking is better 3 point shooters, and I'll look to address that later on. However, I don't really need another option for scoring there. I think a scrapper type of guy is perfect here.


I never said BEn was any good on offense. They are both horrible, and having either is like playing 4 on 5, besides the offensive rebounding aspect.

Bo is just a really safe pick and I hate that for your team. I liked the direction it was going, and now back to back safe picks with mcrray and outlaw, you need to go for the green more. You've got duncan already the most conservatively good player in this league. Dont make a republican team.
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Old 06-20-2008, 11:13 AM   #13195
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

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I think the Dell Curry pick is A+ value at this point. Several shooters were taken recently before him too, I was wondering if everyone forgot about him.

D
The Aguirre pick kind of limited my window, and Dell Curry didn't really start taking a ton of 3s until he was 29.
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Old 06-20-2008, 11:13 AM   #13196
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

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If Outlaw never takes a single jumpshot on my team, I'd be fine by that. Offensively, I just wanted someone who could finish a high percentage of the time when given open dunks/layups.
did you happen to pass up a few people because they were poor open-layup / open-dunk finishers?
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Old 06-20-2008, 11:18 AM   #13197
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

Xavier seems like a fine pick here. I find it interesting though that you rave about his defense in the writeup, and looking at his stats (traditional stats, advanced stats, all-defensive team recognition), there is absolutely zero evidence that he was a good defender. I concede that defense is something the stats capture poorly, and I've never seen X play, so you may well be right. Still, I find that with other players who are good defenders, there is at least some stat that reflects it (or they have the all-defensive nods to prove it). So I would like someone else who has seen X play chime in on this - what was his D like?
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Old 06-20-2008, 11:29 AM   #13198
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

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It didn't hurt my feelings one bit; I just think blanket statements with no argument to back it up is really meaningless. My feelings are never hurt by disagreement; Rather I welcome it for the sake of discussion. Ok, lets take your statements one at a time here:


"Bo couldn't shoot"

Agreed completely. If Outlaw never takes a single jumpshot on my team, I'd be fine by that. Offensively, I just wanted someone who could finish a high percentage of the time when given open dunks/layups. I actually looked at quite a few guys here, many of whom actually had more offensive game than Bo but were used to being more involved on offense. Throughout their entire careers these guys took quite a few shots per game and didn't hit at that high of a percentage. I could've chosen one of them and tried to change their games, but I think its much better to take someone who is already proven at the role I want. Plus the entire "His efficiency will improve with lower usage" is speculative and only true in some cases. And even still, Bogart could finish at the rim as well as any of them, which as I've said is all I wanted offensively from this pick.
Everyone finishes w/ a high % when given open dunks/layups. I don't really understand what you are saying. You drafted a guy that didn't create one thing offensively but made a shot when close (like all big men), he is a black hole when the ball went down to him in the post. He always was, which was mind-boggling b/c he was super athletic. You are overrating his efficiency, his TS% doesn't tell you what he actually did on the court. The guy took just under 4 shots a game--none of which had any high degree of difficulty so stop w/ the TS%.


Quote:
"he could barely hit the goal with his free throws"

Its true that hes not a great FT shooter(although you're obviously using hyperbole as there have been quite a few worse FT shooters already selected). However, even his poor FT shooting didn't stop his overall efficiency(TS) from being excellent, and thats all I care about. Clearly if my team is up late and the other team is fouling then he won't be in the game. Keep in mind, this is my 6th man...a role player. I'm looking to fill certain roles here, not to find a great all around player. I tried to find great all around players with my starters(although to be fair, I did say that I will occassionally start him to help AK47 find the best matchup).
Yea, that was hyperbole and of course there have been worse ft shooters <insert undrafted player that won't be taken> but he was still awful. I understand he won't be in the game late and he is your 6th man, that is nice. But once again he adds nothing on the offensive side of the floor, basically a guy who stands there. Other guys that are high efficiency/low usage (which Bo isn't I don't care how many times you try to shout TS%) is that they create for the other guys on the floor b/c of their efficiency. Nobody was ever worried about Bo on the offensive side of the floor.


Quote:
"for a post he wasn't a great rebounder."

If you define "great" as one of the best in the league, then of course not. However, you're making it out to be that hes not a good rebounder and thats just not true imo. For his career he averaged 7.7 rebounds per 36 minutes, and he played until he was 36 years old(and came in the league as a 22 year old).

By comparison Elden Campbell and Herb Williams were just taken a few picks before me. They averaged 5.9 and 6.2 rebounds per 36 minutes respectively. Add in AK47 providing help side and its going to be very tough to drive on my team.
You bring up per 36 here. First, not all guys drafted in this stage are going to be 80 GS and 35+ mpg guys but I don't every remember Bo being a starter or getting minutes, I looked it up and he was a starter for really 1 year where he played over 30 mpg. There is a reason he wasn't on the floor a ton.

Quote:
"I remember him being a great shot blocker, and a pretty good 1on1 and help defender"

Agreed completely. Post defense is just so valuable imo. Combined with Tim Duncan, my team is pretty stacked here. Add in AK47 providing help side and its going to be very tough to drive on my team.

"other than that he was a liability."
Weird that you agreed w/ this part!

Quote:
No, not at all. In fact, hes the exact opposite of a liability. Hes the type of guy who doesn't hurt you at all. He shoots a high %, rebounds fairly well, is a very good defender, was a captain several times so I'd say good locker room presence. How on earth do you figure hes a liability. A liability would be someone who you can just leave open on offense or someone who the other team will attack on defense. Bogart can finish too well to leave him open on offense and he can crash the offensive boards as evidenced by his 2.9 offensive rebounds per 36 minutes over his career.

In fact, I think that if you wanted to critisize this pick you should say that he lacks upside and is completely unspectacular. A liability? Thats totally wrong imo.
I don't remember saying liability overall but if I did I was wrong. He is a liability offensively. He is obv a great shot blocker and someone you can bring off the bench that won't give up the lane to Lebron over and over. Now whoever drafted Vince...http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DLjaLO1tMQc
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Old 06-20-2008, 11:39 AM   #13199
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

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The Aguirre pick kind of limited my window, and Dell Curry didn't really start taking a ton of 3s until he was 29.
true - besides, you can do no wrong in my book b2c aguirre is one of 3 fav picks in this draft (moncrief is my fav)

I would have taken curry over wally world and the rifleman, but neither of those are bad picks.

D
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Old 06-20-2008, 11:39 AM   #13200
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

In bo's defense, VC dunked on just about everyone.
http://ca.youtube.com/watch?v=INK-Pr6Z82A
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