Two Plus Two Publishing LLC Two Plus Two Publishing LLC
 

Go Back   Two Plus Two Poker Forums > >

Sporting Events Discussion centered around sporting events.

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 06-19-2008, 01:22 AM   #13101
flyingmoose
veteran
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Posts: 2,224
Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

Quote:
Originally Posted by ClarkNasty View Post
Wally is just such a terrible real life basketball player.
It's okay to be jealous of another man's looks without lashing out. I wish I had abs like Wally's too, but I deal with it like a man rather than spread lies about him on the internet.
flyingmoose is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-19-2008, 01:33 AM   #13102
kidcolin
Carpal \'Tunnel
 
kidcolin's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: thank god for the hatchery
Posts: 108,763
Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

Quote:
Wally is just such a terrible real life basketball player.
tend to agree with this, though I'm not quite as hateful as Clark. There are shooters out there just as good if not better who are just all around better ball players.

on the other hand, I tend to think the same thing about Chuck Person, though he's obv much better and way cooler.
kidcolin is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-19-2008, 01:43 AM   #13103
Victor
Carpal \'Tunnel
 
Victor's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2003
Posts: 65,790
Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

wally has more game than just jump shooting. he can drive a bit. and has always loved to use the glass.
Victor is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-19-2008, 02:33 AM   #13104
Assani Fisher
Carpal \'Tunnel
 
Assani Fisher's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2004
Posts: 48,128
Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

Dr. Zoidberg will be out of town this weekend, so he has PMed me his picks in case it gets to him.
Assani Fisher is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-19-2008, 04:24 AM   #13105
BobboFitos
Carpal \'Tunnel
 
BobboFitos's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: Cambridge, MA
Posts: 72,764
Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

Quote:
Originally Posted by Assani Fisher View Post
You're team appears to be really small with Brandon, Ainge, and Toney now....How do you plan on guarding a team with 2 tall and effective wing scorers?

Short career obviously a concern, but otherwise hes solid imo.
My writeup will address everything, but in short I thought Toney was far and away the most effective scorer off the bench I could find. I could use him in a 2guard set w. TB or Ainge (since he's a combo guard) or go super small to end the game w/ EJ as my 4. I'm likely getting a typical "3" with my next pick, so that my guard rotation looks like TB 30 mins, Danny 28 mins, Eddie 33 mixed between 2/3, and Toney getting backup mins at the 1 and 2. Hell, I might do some super weird stuff depending on matchups and start Toney as my 1, since I don't really need pass-intensive guys since EVERYONE on my team has the ability to score (and effectively) on their own.
BobboFitos is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-19-2008, 04:50 AM   #13106
Assani Fisher
Carpal \'Tunnel
 
Assani Fisher's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2004
Posts: 48,128
Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

htf did I mess up "you're" and "your" there...I never do that!
Assani Fisher is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-19-2008, 04:51 AM   #13107
Assani Fisher
Carpal \'Tunnel
 
Assani Fisher's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2004
Posts: 48,128
Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

There are now 2 guys I want btw. After I make my pick this round I would love to move up, and I'd pay a decent amount too if anyone is interested.
Assani Fisher is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-19-2008, 04:53 AM   #13108
Franchise 60
deliciously angry
 
Franchise 60's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: Ferocious, isn't he?
Posts: 42,744
Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

Quote:
Originally Posted by Assani Fisher View Post
htf did I mess up "you're" and "your" there...I never do that!
Hmm I guess it can happen to anyone huh?
Franchise 60 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-19-2008, 05:29 AM   #13109
BobboFitos
Carpal \'Tunnel
 
BobboFitos's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: Cambridge, MA
Posts: 72,764
Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

Round #6/ Pick 229 via LurchySoprano Andew Toney

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6oe-aPUSXh8

Larry Bird was asked about Andrew Toney, and his response was: "Do I remember Andrew Toney? The Boston Strangler? Yeah, I remember him. I wish we would've had him. He was a killer. We called him the Boston Strangler because every time he got a hold of the ball we knew he was going to score. He was the absolute best I've ever seen at shooting the ball at crucial times. We had nobody who could come close to stopping him. Nobody." I won't dredge the writeup with quote after quote, but since I already used a Bird quote to talk about Ainge, I figured I'd repeat the tradition with Toney. Since I need some guard depth, and I wanted scoring off the bench (or I can mix and match my lineup and start Toney as a tall PG - he was a combo guard before that expression was en vogue) - Toney made sense on a need-basis. Further, he is *not* a ball hog, as he showed he could share the ball w/ great players, since his great sixers teams included Moses Malone, Doctor J, and Mo Cheeks. I'm going to do what I've done with Andrew Toney (or "The Boston Strangler"/TBS) that I've done with everyone else: List accomplishments, show stats, and explain his role.

Team BobboFitos

Starting 5
PG - Terrell Brandon (5'11)
SG - Danny Ainge (6'4)
SF - Eddie Jones (6'6)
PF - Derrick Coleman (6'10)
C - Shaquille O'Neal (7'1)
Bench
PG/SG - Andrew Toney (6'3)

Andrew Toney was a 6'3/178 lbs. PG/SG (combo guard) from Southwestern Louisiana. (Now University of Louisiana at Lafayette) The Boston Strangler (TBS) played 8 years in the NBA (Age 23-30) all with the Philadelphia 76ers. TBS was a key starter on the 1983 championship team, getting nearly 31 mpg, which I don't even expect him to emulate with my team. The biggest weakness is injuries which kept his career short (and wasted his final 3 years, which I'll speak about) but while healthy TBS made the All-Star game twice: As a 25 yr old and 26 yr old. (1982-83, 1983-84)

TBS didn't start until his 3rd year in the league, when he was 25 - which is perfect, since I miss his first 2 seasons where he essentially only played 24mpg and was obviously good but not all-star level. In terms of PER, after wiping his pre-24 rookie season, put up very consistent good numbers of 17.2, 17.9, 17.3, and 16.2. (His 28-30 were injury riddled, and his numbers were just shy of 15 PER) Please note one stat that is impossible to judge based on numbers, and some just "have it" (like Reggie Miller) and others "don't" (like Nick Anderson) is clutchness, which TBS certainly has. The quote that best illustrates this is below...

Quote:
Former Sixers coach Billy Cunningham once spoke about his willingness in an interview. "We're playing the Lakers, the game is in overtime, and we're down a point. We have the ball with close to 20 seconds left, so I call a timeout. The play was for Maurice to hold the ball and, at a certain point, Andrew would come off a screen for a shot. Now, I know Andrew heard me, but as the play starts, Andrew runs over to Maurice, says give me the ball and takes it from him. I'm livid. Here we've designed a play, and he just takes the ball. So, the clock is running down, and Andrew finally drives to the right of the lane. I'm not exaggerating, but three Lakers come flying at him to block the ball. Andrew lofts a 12-footer over them, banks it off the board, game over. His argument? 'Coach, I hear what you're saying but just give me the ball.' That was Andrew."
I like offensive and defensive efficiency metrics, so to best illustrate Andrew, he has a TS% career-wise of .565 (incredible for a guy who didn't shoot that many 3s) and this is even better when you focus on his post 23 healthy years: .572, .558, .597, .582. Even better, he wasn't a low-usage guy: He was a bulk efficient scorer! (What a find this late in the draft) His usage career-wise was 25.9%, and peaked at 29.0% as a 24 yr old. Defensively, his numbers show his injuries. Career wise he's a 108, which is technically just below average for a guard. ("Avg" being around 106/107) However, when he incurs injuries, he numbers shoot up to 111, 112, 113, 114. I'll have to be selective when I play Toney though, as in the best-case scenario his defense doesn't hurt me.

In terms of intangibles, Toney was as noted incredibly clutch and has a championship ring to show he's a "winner". In terms of durability, when he came in the league he played: 75, 77, 81, 78, then 70 games. As a 28 yr old, though, (here is where I deal with injuries ) he developed stress fractures in his feet. Here is where I think I have an advantage with Toney: The doctors at the time (1985) could not detect them. It wasn't a McHale-esque "I'm going to play through them," it was "we didn't detect them until they got horrible". I think in our league he is not going to be an ironman, but he likely won't end his career prematurely either. I'll leave everyone to decide this, of course.

Defensively, TBS is an undersized 2 guard, but allows me to cross-match him with a PG if I'm playing him w/ Danny in the backcourt. I am excited at the prospect of going big w/ him and EJ in my backcourt, or small and playing EJ at the 4, Ainge at the 3, Toney at the 2, and TB at the 1. In terms of forcing TOs, Toney is a little bit below average (1.1 sp36mins, or 1.4% STL%, which is slightly below) and also fouls a tad too much (3.8 PF per 36) but again, I am not planning on playing him starting minutes, so his foul rate shouldn't be too much of a hindrance.

Offensively, TBS is a man possessed. I already mentioned his fantastic bulk efficiency numbers, but the best part is he creates for himself. For a small 2, he gets to the line a TON (5.7 FTA per 36, and shoots at just under 80%, or 79.7%) This goes along with my entire team of forcing fouls, since Shaq (best ever in this stat) DC (big plus) and Tee Bee (another big plus) all get to the line often. As an outside shooter, TBS is average. He shot career-wise 34.2% and actually was 2nd in the league in 1981-82 (42.4%) and 6th in 1984-85. (37.1%) So, he's "capable," but the draw back is he just didn't shoot MANY 3s. In fact, over his career, he is 138 for 403; that's ONE season for a premier 3pt shooter. I keep saying I could play TBS at point for a little bit, which I don't "need" to since I want Ainge backing up Tee Bee there, but TBS averaged 5.6 apg/36, so he's a capable passer. (Just looks for his own shot first though) Andrew's rebounding numbers are very mediocre and pedestrian compared to other guards (4.4% TRB, 2.9 a game per 36) so he won't help or harm me, but I don't need rebounding from my little guys since I have Shaq and DC controlling the boards already.

Going back to my overall philosophy (balance) I think TBS at this spot offers me an elite offensive threat off the bench, a guy that can play PG or SG, and will be capable of hitting the huge shot at the end of the game. Toney was also sickly athletic, so if I need to push the pace, he can run and gun. (Again, he played w/ Dr. J - Dr. Dunk!)

Shark already picked so he's "not on the clock".
BobboFitos is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-19-2008, 05:30 AM   #13110
BobboFitos
Carpal \'Tunnel
 
BobboFitos's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: Cambridge, MA
Posts: 72,764
Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

Mods, please edit that into the thread, obv - thank you.
BobboFitos is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-19-2008, 05:36 AM   #13111
KLJ
20k hands/day
 
KLJ's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: Topeka
Posts: 5,701
Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

edit: kind of answered

@ assani: if the 2 guys I've been looking at get taken in the next 10, I'd entertain offers to trade down
KLJ is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-19-2008, 05:40 AM   #13112
BobboFitos
Carpal \'Tunnel
 
BobboFitos's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: Cambridge, MA
Posts: 72,764
Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

The argument is he had stress fractures which weren't detected by the sixers medical staff, he played on them and made them so bad he couldn't play on them any longer. The hope is even though he's pre-disposed to them, and therefore will never play 100% of games, he will be able to sit out enough games to prolong his career.
BobboFitos is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-19-2008, 05:47 AM   #13113
lapoker17
Carpal \'Tunnel
 
Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: FEELING YOU
Posts: 8,960
Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

jesus he's not a combo guard. stop.

the reason toney would last longer than 27 in this league is that he was either misdiagnosed or doctors at the time didn't understand simple stress fractures.

you can go read about the injuries and how they affected his career. the short version is - sixers doctors couldn't pinpoint the problem so owner harold katz thought toney was using it as a ploy to hold out/renegotiate - caused tons of hate blah blah blah.

"stress fracture" is pretty nebulous these days so anyone can guess what condition he may be in given this league's rules - but it's fairly certain he'd be better off than he was at the time.

this guy was a ****ing killer. he was also the anti youtube. just got it done always.
lapoker17 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-19-2008, 06:29 AM   #13114
BobboFitos
Carpal \'Tunnel
 
BobboFitos's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: Cambridge, MA
Posts: 72,764
Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

Rob - "he's not a combo guard".

Huh? Everytime I read about him he was "iverson before iverson".
BobboFitos is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-19-2008, 08:59 AM   #13115
Jack of Arcades
Jumbo Jack
 
Jack of Arcades's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: The Bastion
Posts: 23,569
Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

Being a fellow Cajun, I obviously support the Andrew Toney pick. Toney was one of the stars those 70s teams produced along with Bo Lamar (who played a little in the ABA/NBA in the 70s).

USL basketball actually got the harshest penalty ever imposed by the NCAA. The team was banned from playing basketball for 2 years and the other teams couldn't be on national TV or participate in the post-season for 2 years.

The team was killswitched for "direct payments to student athletes" but most of this was petty crap like lunch money. Most people here think it was a matter of racism, since USL used mostly black players. Most of this **** would be considered pretty petty now, Alabama football got that huge penalty, but that still wasn't anything compared what USL got.

Sorry, guess it doesn't have anything to do with anything, but I guess it could explain how a stud like Andrew Toney went to USL.
Jack of Arcades is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-19-2008, 09:18 AM   #13116
capone0
Carpal \'Tunnel
 
capone0's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: Philly
Posts: 43,034
Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

Herb Williams was pretty inefficient for a post player but he did have some good years early on and then became very inefficient scoring wise. He definitely can rebound though and block shots.
capone0 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-19-2008, 09:41 AM   #13117
Seadood228
Carpal \'Tunnel
 
Seadood228's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2004
Location: Rossmoor, CA
Posts: 30,306
Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

Round 6:232 - Elden Campbell - Power Forward / Center



Stats (Per 36 minutes):

15.1 Points / 8.5 Reb / 2.2 blk / 1.0 stl / 1.7 ast / 1.9 TO / .513 TS

24.7 Minutes Per Game / 102 Career Defensive Rating / 128 Defensive Win Shares (60th all time)

A little strapped for time, so this one is short and sweet.

I had originally thought about going for an offensive sixth man, but my searches have shown that there is still a ton of depth at that spot, especially when outside shooting is not a concern. I decided on taking another defensive-stalwart big man, one with a bit of size and a solid low post game. Elden represents a great back-up and change-of-pace for KG and Laimbeer, because he played more of the physical game than KG and was more athletic than Lamb. He also has more size which will help my team should they come up against a stronger big man (ahem, Shaq, 2003/4). I also think Elden fits well with my three point shooters, which should give him the space to operate down low. He's not going to win any efficiency contests, but as a backup that's less of an issue. He was quite the foulbox, but once again this is less of an issue being a backup.

Oh, and there's this awesome dunk.

As far as injury and off the court issues are concerned, he was considered a great sportsman and played in lots of games, yadda yadda.

My team so far:

PG/SG - Jeff Hornacek / 6'4"
SG/SF - Bobby Phills / 6'5"
SF/SF - Mike Miller / 6'8"
PF/C - Kevin "Anything's possibuuuuullllll" Garnett / 6'11"
C - Bill Laimbeer / 6'11"

PF/C - Elden Campbell / 6'11"
Seadood228 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-19-2008, 09:45 AM   #13118
Seadood228
Carpal \'Tunnel
 
Seadood228's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2004
Location: Rossmoor, CA
Posts: 30,306
Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

Early Elden Campbell defense:

I felt that there was a lack of size and inside presence on my team, and wanted to ramp up the physicality a bit. There are a ton of "do nothing but score efficiently" sixth-man types of there, so I went with what I felt was more scarce.
Seadood228 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-19-2008, 09:54 AM   #13119
.Alex.
Pooh-Bah
 
.Alex.'s Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: Playa del Carmen
Posts: 5,737
Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

Heh, I was kinda in a tossup between Herb and Elden. Very similar players.
.Alex. is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-19-2008, 10:01 AM   #13120
fanmail
Carpal \'Tunnel
 
fanmail's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: Crown Town
Posts: 32,416
Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

Elden Campbell is a beast. Your team is big, need to run 1/2 court sets mostly. I don't see many fast breaks coming.
fanmail is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-19-2008, 10:46 AM   #13121
Seadood228
Carpal \'Tunnel
 
Seadood228's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2004
Location: Rossmoor, CA
Posts: 30,306
Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

Korver is a great pick and a nice fit. I think there's a lot of value in a shooter who isn't just a spot up guy, someone who can wear defenses out coming off screens and has serious range.

I think him moving to Utah had a lot to do with their success.
Seadood228 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-19-2008, 11:09 AM   #13122
Assani Fisher
Carpal \'Tunnel
 
Assani Fisher's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2004
Posts: 48,128
Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

Quote:
Originally Posted by KLJ View Post
@ assani: if the 2 guys I've been looking at get taken in the next 10, I'd entertain offers to trade down
Sounds good. A tentative offer from me would be you letting me move up in the 7th round and I let you move up in both the 8th and 9th rounds.

Last edited by Assani Fisher; 06-19-2008 at 11:19 AM.
Assani Fisher is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-19-2008, 11:16 AM   #13123
Assani Fisher
Carpal \'Tunnel
 
Assani Fisher's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2004
Posts: 48,128
Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

I'm about to go to bed. BigChips doesn't happen to be about to make his pick, eh?
Assani Fisher is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-19-2008, 11:26 AM   #13124
Assani Fisher
Carpal \'Tunnel
 
Assani Fisher's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2004
Posts: 48,128
Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

Alright, I guess not. I'm off to bed. Will check the thread and post my pick if I'm up when I wake up.
Assani Fisher is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-19-2008, 12:14 PM   #13125
D104
Carpal \'Tunnel
 
D104's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: In a better place.
Posts: 18,272
Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

Elden!

My Elden story:

Back in like 98, I was watching a Laker game with my wife, who was just my girlfriend at the time. Anyway, midway through the game, she makes the comment that she likes Elden as a player because he's just so damn goofy. Next play, Elden posts up and gets a bucket to go, elbows flying. I say, "Elden can get the job done, but its never pretty." Just then, as Elden is running back down the court he just falls down for no reason. He didn't trip on somebody's foot or run into anyone, there was nobody around him. He just fell flat on his face, somehow tripping over himself.

I think me and my wife laughed for like 5 minutes.

Anyway, I like Elden.

D
D104 is offline   Reply With Quote

Reply
      

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off


Forum Jump


All times are GMT -4. The time now is 12:45 AM.


Powered by vBulletin®
Copyright ©2000 - 2021, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Copyright © 2008-2020, Two Plus Two Interactive