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Old 06-16-2008, 02:15 PM   #12776
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

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Originally Posted by EPiPeN11 View Post
See I feel this is when people are overrating KG, the Celtics D is not great b/c of KG, it's great because we have a ton of very good/great defenders, including KG (KG, , Pierce, Posey, Rondo), and a great defensive coach (thibideau).

KG's wolves teams were never the best defensive team in the league (at least I can't recall they were).
He was still a top 3 defender at his position for most of his career. I know he's getting a lot of the credit and it's not all deserved, but he's still their best defender. In Minnesota I can't think of another good defender he might have had on that team, I guess Latrell was good but never great. I'll agree though is the team they've constructed has made them all better.
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Old 06-16-2008, 02:18 PM   #12777
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

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He was still a top 3 defender at his position for most of his career. I know he's getting a lot of the credit and it's not all deserved, but he's still their best defender. In Minnesota I can't think of another good defender he might have had on that team, I guess Latrell was good but never great. I'll agree though is the team they've constructed has made them all better. Also delete one of the names Epi.
Ok I agree hes their best defender (not by much at all though) but it just tilts me hard when people (mostly anyone who isn't a Celtics fan) give all the credit for the defense to KG when in reality we had so many changes on defense from last year that helped.
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Old 06-16-2008, 02:21 PM   #12778
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

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Ok I agree hes their best defender (not by much at all though) but it just tilts me hard when people give all the credit for the defense to KG when in reality we had so many changes on defense from last year that helped.
First Melo, now KG? go to hell epip
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Old 06-16-2008, 02:23 PM   #12779
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

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First Melo, now KG? go to hell epip
heh sorries, I still do love KG hes my 4th favorite Celtic (and obv is a great player) but I do think hes overrated.
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Old 06-16-2008, 02:27 PM   #12780
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

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kinda interesting blog article I found about defense: http://bucksdiary.blogspot.com/2008_05_01_archive.html (scroll around halfway down, written on May 17th, Defensive Win Score and the NBA All-Defensive team, blog sucks by not creating links to the exact post in the archives)

He feels Pierce was the best defender in the league this season (though he acknowledges KG is probably part of the reason). I also highly agree with his take on Marcus Camby.
PaulP was also rated highly here over a two year stretch from 2003-2005.

Also PP vs. Posey. I agree, but I think we are getting a weird area once debates get started on who played better D on who. I think it's safe to say that a player known for good D is where you'd start, and then the rest of his game should dictate whether or not he fits your team. With perhaps special consideration given to the truly special players like Bowen..
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Old 06-16-2008, 02:36 PM   #12781
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

you used the wrong pic for johnny cage imo.

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Old 06-16-2008, 02:38 PM   #12782
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

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you used the wrong pic for johnny cage imo.

I assume this was going to be a mortal kombat picture instead of an epic fail?
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Old 06-16-2008, 02:40 PM   #12783
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

Bobbo you interested in trading down? Anyone in the next 4 or 5 picks interested in trading? Bobbo I know it's not easy to trade with you.
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Old 06-16-2008, 02:43 PM   #12784
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

I will trade
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Old 06-16-2008, 02:46 PM   #12785
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

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PaulP was also rated highly here over a two year stretch from 2003-2005.

Also PP vs. Posey. I agree, but I think we are getting a weird area once debates get started on who played better D on who. I think it's safe to say that a player known for good D is where you'd start, and then the rest of his game should dictate whether or not he fits your team. With perhaps special consideration given to the truly special players like Bowen..
Pierce rates better than Bowen here, too. I'm beginning to think Bowen's severely overrated. I think he's a good, solid player, but he's offensively inept and isn't like, DPOY good.
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Old 06-16-2008, 02:50 PM   #12786
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

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Pierce rates better than Bowen here, too. I'm beginning to think Bowen's severely overrated. I think he's a good, solid player, but he's offensively inept and isn't like, DPOY good.
I dunno.. I know it's subjective, but every time I watch Bowen play, his movements, hands, they are all over the place. He never lets up, and also has that douchey thing going on which is like mental defense.

I want to say he's an overrated defender, but I'm impressed every time I watch him play.

Perhaps it's his lack of rebounding that I should be factoring in more...
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Old 06-16-2008, 03:10 PM   #12787
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Is there a metric for how someone's douchiness makes them a better defender? I mean, can we say, "for his looks, dirty rep, and whining, Bowen garnered 11.8 BAA* in 2007-2008, good for 3rd in the league"?

(* - "Bowens Above Average" LDO)
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Old 06-16-2008, 03:12 PM   #12788
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

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Pierce rates better than Bowen here, too. I'm beginning to think Bowen's severely overrated. I think he's a good, solid player, but he's offensively inept and isn't like, DPOY good.
You guys do realize Bowen is 36 right? He is still a great defender but he was obviously better when he was in the 30-34 age range.
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Old 06-16-2008, 03:49 PM   #12789
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

Aite I jus misread....u guys are talking about the 2003-2005 Bowen my bad (post is too old to edit).
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Old 06-16-2008, 03:50 PM   #12790
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

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You guys do realize Bowen is 36 right? He is still a great defender but he was obviously better when he was in the 30-34 age range.
This is true, but by your logic he would have been "obviously better" in the 24-28 range, which he wasnt. Some players peak late/early or whatever.
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Old 06-16-2008, 03:51 PM   #12791
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

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This is true, but by your logic he would have been "obviously better" in the 24-28 range, which he wasnt. Some players peak late/early or whatever.
Yes but it's rare that a player peaks late/early (assuming injuries play no/little factor), most peoples common primes/peaks are like 26-32
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Old 06-16-2008, 05:25 PM   #12792
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

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The Lakers had the 6th most efficient offense in the league despite Kobe missing 17 games, Shaq missing 15 games, and Malone missing 40 games. Looks to me like they had a pretty good offense, all things considered.
Exactly. As said, NPP w/ another wrong argument.
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Old 06-16-2008, 05:27 PM   #12793
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

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in general I think the Boston homers are quite knowledgeable about basketball. They get a thumbs down for being silent about the 'Toine pick though.
I love 'Toine, but he is one of the most overrated players to ever play the game. Meaning, he sucked, but got lucky and made it to multiple all star teams. The guy who drafted him (Cowboy IIRC) has a badass team, a lot of heart, etc. but I think Antoine for BASKETBALL sake is a bad fit.
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Old 06-16-2008, 05:29 PM   #12794
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

I said "wiggle" and "because there are no 4s".. what else needs to be said?
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Old 06-16-2008, 05:29 PM   #12795
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

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Nice pick, I think. I picked Gill last night...no feedback because people were too busy having a pissing contest about James ****ing Posey, but whatever.
Yeah, I apologize. Once we get a few more picks I'll do my "in bold" type criticism/analysis of players. Hopefully we'll all move away from the great Posey Debate.
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Old 06-16-2008, 05:33 PM   #12796
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

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Bobbo you interested in trading down? Anyone in the next 4 or 5 picks interested in trading? Bobbo I know it's not easy to trade with you.
Wait, why isn't it easy to trade with me? I've made more trades than anyone in the draft, I think. I don't get it
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Old 06-16-2008, 05:46 PM   #12797
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

No, our positions don't make it easy. I've checked the draft picks we both have not that you aren't willing.
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Old 06-16-2008, 05:46 PM   #12798
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

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i'll get my pick up this afternoon
Blah, I guess we wait another day..........
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Old 06-16-2008, 06:24 PM   #12799
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

I had to google "because there are no 4s". Nonetheless, solid gold.

D
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Old 06-16-2008, 08:37 PM   #12800
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

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I love 'Toine, but he is one of the most overrated players to ever play the game. Meaning, he sucked, but got lucky and made it to multiple all star teams. The guy who drafted him (Cowboy IIRC) has a badass team, a lot of heart, etc. but I think Antoine for BASKETBALL sake is a bad fit.
If he was overrated IRL, how about for this exercise?

Getting him @ 215 was good value IMO - although Glenn Robinson was who I was targeting w/ that pick. I wanted a wing scorer with this pick because I think that is the biggest weakness of my starting five. Its also nice that he got 8-9 rebounds a game, although that should decline somewhat since I will play him primarily as a SF and not a PF. 5 dimes a game is pretty good for a guy who played PF as well.

This also gives my lineup some flex as to style of play. Sliding Rasheed over to the 5, LJ to the 4, and inserting Antoine @ the 3 would give me 5 guys on the floor that can all run and shoot, which should serve an up-tempo style well.

Glenn Robinson would give me the same things while being a more efficient scorer, so thats why I would have prefered him. Robinson's defense & rebounding were marginally worse than Antoine's, so there is some trade-off there. All in all, I wanted 1 of the 2 guys and I'm happy with the pick.
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