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Old 06-16-2008, 11:07 AM   #12751
Seadood228
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

Random comments:

- Epip actually has a lot of quality points, but unfortunately they get lost because he either takes everything to extremes or argues until people feel like disagreeing out of spite.

- While I don't agree that Posey was the best defender at the time he was drafted, he was definitely at or close to the best guy left that had a combination of defense, range, slashing, and size. He also shoots very few two point jumpers, which are the worst type of shots you can take. For him it's pretty much 75/25 3 pointers and layups, very nice.

- I think many here vastly underrate 3 point shooting. Other than lay-ups, it's the most efficient shot by a mile. Not only that, but as Game 4 of the finals has shown us, it does wonders for opening up an offense.

- There's been a lot of bickering about "role players vs. quality starters" making up the ideal team. I actually agree with the quality starters camp, but my definition of a quality starter is different. Many of these inefficient guys are just crap players, they are crap players on good teams and crap players on bad teams, and they rarely ever win anything because they have too many deficiencies.

- The original Dream Team was much more successful because they played against weaker competition, and more importantly they were all great passers.

- I'm convinced that LBJ is a very good defender. I'm not sure just how good, but all the advanced metrics say he is excellent. My guess is that him killing you on the other end has a lot to do with it. It reminds me of Reggie Miller.

- There isn't enough Joe Dumars on these all-time defensive lists.

- After checking advanced stats, and especially H2H stats with the great big men, I'm starting to think Dikembe Mutombo is the greatest defender in this draft.

- Tbach is my new favorite poster, and in general I think the Boston homers are quite knowledgeable about basketball. They get a thumbs down for being silent about the 'Toine pick though.

- Except Epip, especially after he dissed the Melo Man.

- Many of the great defenders have yet to be drafted.

Last edited by Seadood228; 06-16-2008 at 11:18 AM.
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Old 06-16-2008, 11:17 AM   #12752
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

Quote:
Originally Posted by Seadood228 View Post
Random comments:

- Epip actually has a lot of quality points, but unfortunately they get lost because he either takes everything to extremes or argues until people feel like disagreeing out of spite.

- While I don't necessarily agree that Posey the best defender at the time, he was definitely at or close to the best guy left that had a combination of defense, range, slashing, and size. He takes very little two point jumpers, which are the worst type of shots you can take.

- I think many here vastly underrate 3 point shooting. Other than lay-ups, it's the most efficient shot by a mile. Not only that, but as Game 4 of the finals has shown us, it does wonders for opening up an offense.

- There's been a lot of bickering about "role players vs. quality starters" making up the ideal team. I actually agree with the quality starters camp, but my definition of a quality starter is different. Many of these inefficient guys are just crap players, they are crap players on good teams and crap players on bad teams, and they rarely ever win anything because they have too many deficiencies.

- The original Dream Team was much more successful because they played against weaker competition, and more importantly they were all great passers.

- I'm convinced that LBJ is a very good defender. I'm not sure just how good, but all the advanced metrics say he is excellent. My guess is that him killing you on the other end has a lot to do with it. It reminds me of Reggie Miller.

- There isn't enough Joe Dumars on these all-time defensive lists.

- After checking advanced stats, and especially H2H stats with the great big men, I'm starting to think Dikembe Mutombo is the greatest defender in this draft.

- Tbach is my new favorite poster, and in general I think the Boston homers are quite knowledgeable about basketball. They get a thumbs down for being silent about the 'Toine pick though.

- Except Epip, especially after he dissed the Melo Man.

- Many of the great defenders have yet to be drafted.
Problem with 3 point shooting and jumpers is they usually don't get you to the foul line. Getting others in foul trouble and getting to the line is the reason why Shaq, Duncan, etc. have been so successful but shoot a horrible % from the line. Michael, Kobe, etc. can get you to the line shooting jumpers but 3 point shooters hardly get to the line.
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Old 06-16-2008, 11:23 AM   #12753
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

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Problem with 3 point shooting and jumpers is they usually don't get you to the foul line. Getting others in foul trouble and getting to the line is the reason why Shaq, Duncan, etc. have been so successful but shoot a horrible % from the line. Michael, Kobe, etc. can get you to the line shooting jumpers but 3 point shooters hardly get to the line.
Fouls are factored into that equation.

But my argument is more against the 2 point jump-shot.. Layups are awesome, but very few wing players can get them in bulk. Plus good 3 point shooting really opens up a players ability to slash. Look at guys like Mike Miller, there's no way that they get that many layups without being able to blow by a guy who's just run out to guard them.
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Old 06-16-2008, 11:29 AM   #12754
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

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Fouls are factored into that equation.

But my argument is more against the 2 point jump-shot.. Layups are awesome, but very few wing players can get them in bulk. Plus good 3 point shooting really opens up a players ability to slash. Look at guys like Mike Miller, there's no way that they get that many layups without being able to blow by a guy who's just run out to guard them.
I don't know if MM is a great example, his teams for the most part have been horrible other than the 3 year run the Grizzles had, and their best wing player I guess was Eddie Jones way passed his prime, Shane Battier . I guess you can argue Peja opens up the lanes for CP3 and I guess Ray opens up the lanes for Pierce, Bowen for TP and Manu, but I don't think clogging the lanes are that big of an issue. A lot of teams have a bunch of marginal 3 point shooters.

I do agree that a 3 point field goal is a million times better than a 20 foot field goal.

Last edited by capone0; 06-16-2008 at 11:34 AM.
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Old 06-16-2008, 11:33 AM   #12755
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

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I don't know if MM is a great example, his teams for the most part have been horrible other than the 3 year run the Grizzles had, and their best wing player I guess was Eddie Jones way passed his prime, Shane Battier, XXXX . I guess you can argue Peja opens up the lanes for CP3 and I guess Ray opens up the lanes for Pierce, Bowen for TP and Manu, but I don't think clogging the lanes are that big of an issue. A lot of teams have a bunch of marginal 3 point shooters.

I do agree that a 3 point field goal is a million times better than a 20 foot field goal.
Actually I was just referring to the fact MM gets a lot of layups (30% of his points) even though he's not a typical slasher. His excellent outside shooting forces his defender to play him tight, often running at him if out of position, and overall he has less room for error. That allows Mike to get around his man and inside easier. I used MM because he's fairly un-athletic and slow, yet still gets a lot of layups. Hedo and Manu are also good examples of slow dudes who do this, imo. These guys wouldn't be nearly effective if they weren't such good bombers.

But I totally agree with the point you were making except for the unmentioned player.
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Old 06-16-2008, 11:39 AM   #12756
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

I also wanted to add that I didn't take a whole lot of stock into that particular article until JackofArcades pointed me to another article that ran further tests, all with the same result.

I was pretty shocked how the corner 3 was that much better than a straight-away one. Probably because I suck at baseline treys.
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Old 06-16-2008, 11:40 AM   #12757
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

Pick is up.

The "Juiceman" Michael Cage!!!
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Old 06-16-2008, 11:40 AM   #12758
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

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Originally Posted by Seadood228 View Post

- While I don't agree that Posey was the best defender at the time he was drafted, he was definitely at or close to the best guy left that had a combination of defense, range, slashing, and size. He also shoots very few two point jumpers, which are the worst type of shots you can take. For him it's pretty much 75/25 3 pointers and layups, very nice.
The problem is Posey is not good at anything offensively other than hitting open 3s, at which he's not even at an elite level, and was a skill he definitely did not have early in his career. When you get him at age 24 in this draft, you get an absolutely awful offensive player in every way.

Quote:

- Many of the great defenders have yet to be drafted.
Nitpicking a little, but this is also very wrong. There are definitely some good defenders left at this point, but there are only a couple if any of the all-nba level defensive group left. We basically just saw the last group of these guys go.
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Old 06-16-2008, 11:42 AM   #12759
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

Cage is probally better than some of the other marginal rebounder/defenders taken lately. NEver really got hurt, pretty efficient and excellent rebounder.
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Old 06-16-2008, 11:50 AM   #12760
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

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Originally Posted by Dr. Zoidberg View Post
Pick is up.

The "Juiceman" Michael Cage!!!
Nice pick, I think. I picked Gill last night...no feedback because people were too busy having a pissing contest about James ****ing Posey, but whatever.
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Old 06-16-2008, 11:54 AM   #12761
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

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The problem is Posey is not good at anything offensively other than hitting open 3s, at which he's not even at an elite level, and was a skill he definitely did not have early in his career. When you get him at age 24 in this draft, you get an absolutely awful offensive player in every way.
The age thing is actually a very good point, have to concede that. But I don't care if he's not good at anything other than 3 point shooting/defense/slashing, because his main role in this spot would be to take the heat off the inside guys and defend wing players. In that context I would take Posey over a guy who was a better defender but couldn't shoot, or a better offensive player who played horrible D. On a team that's not as offensively stacked, Posey would be much less valuable.

Quote:
Nitpicking a little, but this is also very wrong. There are definitely some good defenders left at this point, but there are only a couple if any of the all-nba level defensive group left. We basically just saw the last group of these guys go.
My list is subjective obviously, but I've got:

3 of the top 10 wing defenders
the 4th best post defender in the league right now, probably top 10 overall
A top 5 little man defender

All on my list of undrafted players. Plus a few bad players here and there that are close. I'm not sold on the "all-d" nods, because those have historically been given to great players who play good D. There are exceptions like Bowen, though.
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Old 06-16-2008, 11:56 AM   #12762
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

Gill is another long run player. 1 thing is he's pretty inefficient especially at the end of his career. From the ages 23-28 he was average, then between 29-36 he was way below average. He's a good rebounder and passer for the swing position, and stole a lot of balls which was his specialty.
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Old 06-16-2008, 12:19 PM   #12763
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

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4. the amount that posey is underrated is sickening. i'm going to risk sounding like mark jackson, but posey does soooo many little things. and yes, he's up there as one of the best perimeter defenders in the nba today.
Posey looked like a turnstile against LeBron. If you want to say "well that's LeBron" then I'll point out that Pierce did a much better job one on one and Joe Johnson torched Posey as well.
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Old 06-16-2008, 12:45 PM   #12764
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

Cage is an excellent pick here. I definitely looked at him, and probably would have taken him (or another player at a different position who hasn't been drafted yet) if i didn't need a wing defender so badly.
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Old 06-16-2008, 12:52 PM   #12765
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

yeah I have no clue who this guy is
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Old 06-16-2008, 01:04 PM   #12766
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

Quote:
Originally Posted by Seadood228 View Post
Random comments:

- Epip actually has a lot of quality points, but unfortunately they get lost because he either takes everything to extremes or argues until people feel like disagreeing out of spite.
yay

Quote:
Originally Posted by Seadood228 View Post
- While I don't agree that Posey was the best defender at the time he was drafted, he was definitely at or close to the best guy left that had a combination of defense, range, slashing, and size. He also shoots very few two point jumpers, which are the worst type of shots you can take. For him it's pretty much 75/25 3 pointers and layups, very nice.
+1 like I said I would have taken Bowen/Bell over Posey, but Posey was 3rd on my list

Quote:
Originally Posted by Seadood228 View Post
- I think many here vastly underrate 3 point shooting. Other than lay-ups, it's the most efficient shot by a mile. Not only that, but as Game 4 of the finals has shown us, it does wonders for opening up an offense.
+1 and i'm actually really surprised by this, I thought the 2+2 peoples would favor 3pt shooting more than NBA coaches do, infact it looks like it's the other way around and NBA coaches actually favor it a lot more than 2+2 posters do except for a few people (me, Seadood etc)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Seadood228 View Post
- There's been a lot of bickering about "role players vs. quality starters" making up the ideal team. I actually agree with the quality starters camp, but my definition of a quality starter is different. Many of these inefficient guys are just crap players, they are crap players on good teams and crap players on bad teams, and they rarely ever win anything because they have too many deficiencies.
+1

Quote:
Originally Posted by Seadood228 View Post
- The original Dream Team was much more successful because they played against weaker competition, and more importantly they were all great passers.
+1, they also had the best team of stars of all time.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Seadood228 View Post
- I'm convinced that LBJ is a very good defender. I'm not sure just how good, but all the advanced metrics say he is excellent. My guess is that him killing you on the other end has a lot to do with it. It reminds me of Reggie Miller.
+1 he has all the tools to be better than Kobe at D imo, because he is almost as quick yet is taller/longer/stronger

Quote:
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- There isn't enough Joe Dumars on these all-time defensive lists.
+1 I was considering Dumars when I took Billups, he was on my short list of 2 way players who could play both very good offense/defense

Quote:
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- After checking advanced stats, and especially H2H stats with the great big men, I'm starting to think Dikembe Mutombo is the greatest defender in this draft.
I dunno about that, greatest help defender maybe def not greatest defender though. He was still very great at D tho obviously

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- Tbach is my new favorite poster, and in general I think the Boston homers are quite knowledgeable about basketball. They get a thumbs down for being silent about the 'Toine pick though.
Yea I agree with a lot of what Tbach says as well

Quote:
Originally Posted by Seadood228 View Post
- Except Epip, especially after he dissed the Melo Man.
**** Walker and I honestly don't even hate Carmelo I was just using him as an example of a player who is much more effective with the ball in his hands than without it

Quote:
Originally Posted by Seadood228 View Post
- Many of the great defenders have yet to be drafted.

I don't know about many but there are def some great defenders left

Last edited by EPiPeN11; 06-16-2008 at 01:12 PM.
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Old 06-16-2008, 01:07 PM   #12767
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

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Posey looked like a turnstile against LeBron. If you want to say "well that's LeBron" then I'll point out that Pierce did a much better job one on one and Joe Johnson torched Posey as well.
I obv haven't followed Posey that close throughout his career, but his problem on defense is he plays too close to the guys. If he just backed off a little like Pierce does, he would be much more effective. (I actually made this exact point in the Lakers v Celtics thread before the series)

And I don't even know if it's all Posey's fault. Infact during one of the early games in the season KG kept telling Posey to play up on his man and saying we got ur back if he goes by u (Greg Dickerson reporting ftw) which is pretty dumb.
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Old 06-16-2008, 01:49 PM   #12768
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

i'll get my pick up this afternoon
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Old 06-16-2008, 01:50 PM   #12769
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

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yeah I have no clue who this guy is
Michael Cage? I remember him from his Sonics days, he was on some of those Kemp/Payton teams. As the writeup mentions, he had a FIERCE Jheri curl.

D
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Old 06-16-2008, 01:54 PM   #12770
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

kinda interesting blog article I found about defense: http://bucksdiary.blogspot.com/2008_05_01_archive.html (scroll around halfway down, written on May 17th, Defensive Win Score and the NBA All-Defensive team, blog sucks by not creating links to the exact post in the archives)

He feels Pierce was the best defender in the league this season (though he acknowledges KG is probably part of the reason). I also highly agree with his take on Marcus Camby.
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Old 06-16-2008, 01:58 PM   #12771
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

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kinda interesting blog article I found about defense: http://bucksdiary.blogspot.com/2008_05_01_archive.html (scroll around halfway down, written on May 17th, Defensive Win Score and the NBA All-Defensive team, blog sucks by not creating links to the exact post in the archives)

He feels Pierce was the best defender in the league this season (though he acknowledges KG is probably part of the reason). I also highly agree with his take on Marcus Camby.
The whole team played rediculous D this whole season. And it's b/c of KG, but Rondo, Posey also getting minutes didn't hurt. I think Pierce is really good, I doubt best defender in the league though.
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Old 06-16-2008, 01:59 PM   #12772
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

As for Cage on that team, I don't like it because you already have Brian Grant. You cant play them together on the court at the same time, so cage is going to get 20 minutes tops per game. I pointed this out when you took Grant, you need low post scoring, and a couple of the guys I was thinking of when you took Grant are still available.

D

PS. You also have Biedrins! How much rebounding do you need? Now I really dont see what Cage gives you that you don't already have in Spades, aside from the juice thing.
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Old 06-16-2008, 02:02 PM   #12773
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

I think Pierce is > Posey defensively and feel Posey's D is being really overstated here. He's good at times but bad at others.

Basically, Posey is a really heady player who comes up big when you need it. He's not a lockdown guy against most great wing players. In the playoffs, Pierce has done a much better job on Kobe and LeBron than Posey has.
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Old 06-16-2008, 02:04 PM   #12774
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

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I think Pierce is > Posey defensively and feel Posey's D is being really overstated here. He's good at times but bad at others.

Basically, Posey is a really heady player who comes up big when you need it. He's not a lockdown guy against most great wing players. In the playoffs, Pierce has done a much better job on Kobe and LeBron than Posey has.
Definitely pointed out they have good defensive players other than Ray who is average nowadays. In their top 8 only Cassell is below average defensively.
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Old 06-16-2008, 02:11 PM   #12775
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

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The whole team played rediculous D this whole season. And it's b/c of KG, but Rondo, Posey also getting minutes didn't hurt. I think Pierce is really good, I doubt best defender in the league though.
See I feel this is when people are overrating KG, the Celtics D is not great b/c of KG, it's great because we have a ton of very good/great defenders, including KG (KG, edit, Pierce, Posey, Rondo), and a great defensive coach (thibideau).

KG's wolves teams were never the best defensive team in the league (at least I can't recall they were).

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