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Old 06-16-2008, 03:40 AM   #12726
Victor
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

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tier 1: Bowen, Bell, Battier, Kobe, Artest, Prince

tier 2: Pierce, AK47, Posey (I think Pierce/AK47 are slightly better than Posey but it isn't by much)
i stand by my statement pierce doesnt belong here.
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Old 06-16-2008, 03:41 AM   #12727
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

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Yes I did Assani
So I'm curious if theres anything in this thread you've changed your opinion about or were you right in every single argument you were in?
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Old 06-16-2008, 03:42 AM   #12728
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

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tier 3: Deng, Josh Howard, Iggy, Wallace
proly not here either.
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Old 06-16-2008, 03:42 AM   #12729
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

I would combine your tier #2 and tier #3...I don't think Pierce/Posey are much better than anyone in tier 3. I would then make a new tier 3 with a ton of players who are just a slight step below tier #2 imo. Btw AK47 definitely used to be tier 1...not anymore though.
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Old 06-16-2008, 03:44 AM   #12730
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

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Originally Posted by Assani Fisher View Post
So I'm curious if theres anything in this thread you've changed your opinion about or were you right in every single argument you were in?
I changed my argument on Kevin Martin's defense, I thought of it as average and then changed it to bad
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Old 06-16-2008, 03:45 AM   #12731
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

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I changed my argument on Kevin Martin's defense, I thought of it as average and then changed it to bad
wow, agonizing decision im sure.
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Old 06-16-2008, 03:46 AM   #12732
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

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wow, agonizing decision im sure.
Hey man at least i'm not the one who thinks Nash is better than Lebron, you're freakin crazy for thinking that bro
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Old 06-16-2008, 03:48 AM   #12733
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

I'm gonna have limited availability this week. But tbach, I've answered all your points. Heck, I posted Posey related crap all afternoon. Not sure what else there is to say. But I will try.

At that stage in the draft it was way too early to pick a niche player. Posey is a slightly above avg defender who is also a slightly above avg 3pt shooter. Big deal. He's terrible in every other respect offensively and his measley 4 3-pt attempts or whatever a game just aint that big a deal. That's why he averages 8ppg. Its why he's a 28mpg guy most of his career.

So which of the guys are better fits? All the ones who are better players (of which Kersey is one). Worry about limited guys like him in rds 7-10, not early 5th.

All rehash.
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Old 06-16-2008, 03:50 AM   #12734
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

2 mvps imo. all lbj does is put up 31.4/7/6.6 and 30/6.9/6.6 seasons. with per 28 and 29.

too bad for him he cant win some mvps bc kobe is a team player. cough 5.4 ast.
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Old 06-16-2008, 03:51 AM   #12735
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

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2 mvps imo. all lbj does is put up 31.4/7/6.6 and 30/6.9/6.6 seasons. with per 28 and 29.

too bad for him he cant win some mvps bc kobe is a team player. cough 5.4 ast.
Don't forget to blame the refs like you do after every single game
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Old 06-16-2008, 03:52 AM   #12736
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

Assani, I have a riddle for you.

If an Assani falls in a forest but no one is around to hear it, does it make a sound?
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Old 06-16-2008, 03:56 AM   #12737
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

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The bolded is what guys like you and EPip don't seem to understand. Even though Posey can hit the open 3 better than Carmelo, the defense will still respect Carmelo more than Posey when Pierce drives(thereby giving Pierce more open space). There are other aspects of spotting up besides hitting an open 3. You can't leave a good driver wide open because you'll be out of position once he starts his move to the hole and that is suicide against an elite finisher for example.

I understand this argument your making ASSANi and is the basis for my whole team in this draft.

Im not saying that the defense would rather leave carmelo alone on defense rather than guarding posey.

Its like the year when lakers had malone, payton kobe shaq. Sure malone and payton helped out the defense tremendously, but you should have seen how clogged the paint was all the time, no spacing. Ofcourse defenses didnt want to leave payton or malone open, but they would choose that over letting kobe drive the lane.

Same thing goes here, you would rather leave carmelo open for a 3 rather than allow pierce to get to the bucket at will, however if you have a guy who will hit 40+% from 3 point range the coach will ALWAYS instruct you to stick with the shooter and the defense will have to help from elsewhere. Thus the spacing on the court is better. So this offense can scoring on Option A of the play rather than having to go to Option B which raises chances of defense recovering or possible miscue.

With carmelo on the floor the offense would have to go to OPtion B which will be a pass to carmelo after pierce drives, and im sure as a coach you would like to be advising carmelo to not take the 3 all the time and since the defense will be out of position to set a lane for melo to be able to take to the bucket which may or may not be as effective as a 40% attempt at a 3 point shot.

With Posey and house on the floor the celts are at their best offensively as long as they play pierce at point and not allow house to take 14 seconds to get them into the offense.

With posey and rondo this hurts their offense tremendously by having rondo he not only is a 0 on the perimiter but he also takes away from poseys shooting because the defender on posey can stick close because the defender from rondo will be helping everyone.

This is what I meant previously when I said if you have 1 bad shooter on the floor is the same as having 3 bad shooters. As long as a defense can designate a help man ( roamer ) it will significantly take away from spot up shooters because their man will be chest up on them the whole time, and if this player is also meaningless defensively than this player has no reason to be on the floor other than to give a starter some rest.
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Old 06-16-2008, 03:58 AM   #12738
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

NPP w/ a terrible argument again. The lakers w/ Malone and Payton were VERY good, they missed a ton of games to injuries.
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Old 06-16-2008, 03:59 AM   #12739
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

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I understand this argument your making ASSANi and is the basis for my whole team in this draft.

Im not saying that the defense would rather leave carmelo alone on defense rather than guarding posey.

Its like the year when lakers had malone, payton kobe shaq. Sure malone and payton helped out the defense tremendously, but you should have seen how clogged the paint was all the time, no spacing. Ofcourse defenses didnt want to leave payton or malone open, but they would choose that over letting kobe drive the lane.

Same thing goes here, you would rather leave carmelo open for a 3 rather than allow pierce to get to the bucket at will, however if you have a guy who will hit 40+% from 3 point range the coach will ALWAYS instruct you to stick with the shooter and the defense will have to help from elsewhere. Thus the spacing on the court is better. So this offense can scoring on Option A of the play rather than having to go to Option B which raises chances of defense recovering or possible miscue.

With carmelo on the floor the offense would have to go to OPtion B which will be a pass to carmelo after pierce drives, and im sure as a coach you would like to be advising carmelo to not take the 3 all the time and since the defense will be out of position to set a lane for melo to be able to take to the bucket which may or may not be as effective as a 40% attempt at a 3 point shot.

With Posey and house on the floor the celts are at their best offensively as long as they play pierce at point and not allow house to take 14 seconds to get them into the offense.

With posey and rondo this hurts their offense tremendously by having rondo he not only is a 0 on the perimiter but he also takes away from poseys shooting because the defender on posey can stick close because the defender from rondo will be helping everyone.

This is what I meant previously when I said if you have 1 bad shooter on the floor is the same as having 3 bad shooters. As long as a defense can designate a help man ( roamer ) it will significantly take away from spot up shooters because their man will be chest up on them the whole time, and if this player is also meaningless defensively than this player has no reason to be on the floor other than to give a starter some rest.
I think this is very well said, but I want to add that have having 1 awful shooter is fine (as long as you play him near the hoop, he can catch the ball and either make dunks/layups).

It's when the Celtics trot out a lineup with Rondo/Perkins for example (2 players who can't shoot) when they should have trouble, if it's just Rondo who can't shoot he can should just stay near the hoop and be able to catch a pass if his defender leaves him/make a layup (obv Doc isn't smart enough to do this, and this role is more suited for bigmen because they can make dunks easier/offensive rebound better, but you can still put a guard in it if needed).
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Old 06-16-2008, 04:00 AM   #12740
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

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NPP w/ a terrible argument again. The lakers w/ Malone and Payton were VERY good, they missed a ton of games to injuries.
Their offense was always stagnant during that year, Malone wouldnt shoot the 15 footer and would re enter to shaq all the time.

We were good because of how good we were defensively, and the smarts of malone and paytone collectively to take so few bad shots that it made up for the bad spacing.
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Old 06-16-2008, 04:09 AM   #12741
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

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Don't forget to blame the refs like you do after every single game
nba would be unfair if lebron got the calls kobe got.

btw lbj did incite a somewhat important rule change.
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Old 06-16-2008, 08:17 AM   #12742
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

The Lakers that year were still really good with all 4 on the court, they took a tumble in the finals when Malone got hurt. They also got the last 2 way after their primes, in their primes that team probally loses like 5 games all year if they are all healthy.
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Old 06-16-2008, 09:24 AM   #12743
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

Might as well post the great PG defenders and great post defenders:

PG:

Payton
Stockton
Kidd
Blaylock
Dumars
Robertson
Lever
Billups

Young guys

Rondo

Post Defenders:

Wallace
Eaton
Duncan
KG
McHale
Dennis
Horace
Mahorn
Hakeem
David
Buck Williams
Ewing
Oakley
Mutombo
Karl
Zo
Ratliff
Shaq
Camby
Brand
Sabonis

Young guys:

Dwight
Okafor
Yao
Chandler
Dalembert
Kaman

Fringe

Webber in hey day
Clifford Robinson
Kenyon
Sheed
PJ
Green
Thomas
Donaldson

Last edited by capone0; 06-16-2008 at 09:40 AM.
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Old 06-16-2008, 09:59 AM   #12744
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

Derek Harper doesn't make the list?
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Old 06-16-2008, 10:00 AM   #12745
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

Not as good with fringe PGs, but I think he should be on it. He's on All-D twice though.........his metrics aren't especially high (DRTG) but he does steal a lot.
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Old 06-16-2008, 10:11 AM   #12746
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

Is WSAA a useful stat or worthless?
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Old 06-16-2008, 10:20 AM   #12747
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

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Is WSAA a useful stat or worthless?
A bit of both!

It is basically a form of point differential - how well your team performs while you are on the court. While this is heavily team dependent, you can look look at is as a proxy for +/- by comparing ORtg and Drtg within the team
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Old 06-16-2008, 10:36 AM   #12748
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

Also...

I'm not sure as to the point of your post, but if your point is that there are more great post defenders than PG defenders, I'd point out two things:

1. Post defense is the most important kind of defense, while PG defense is the least important imo.

2. You're comparing 2 positions(PF and C) to just one.
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Old 06-16-2008, 10:46 AM   #12749
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

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Also...

I'm not sure as to the point of your post, but if your point is that there are more great post defenders than PG defenders, I'd point out two things:

1. Post defense is the most important kind of defense, while PG defense is the least important imo.

2. You're comparing 2 positions(PF and C) to just one.
Just pointing out that we made about the last 150 posts about wing defenders we might as well get post out of the way.

Also forgot Paul to my young guys list. I agree that PG D is the least important by far. And yes it is 2 positions to 1. Also there are a bunch of more good post defenders who lasted long in the league b/c it's really valuable to winning.
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Old 06-16-2008, 10:54 AM   #12750
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

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Their offense was always stagnant during that year, Malone wouldnt shoot the 15 footer and would re enter to shaq all the time.

We were good because of how good we were defensively, and the smarts of malone and paytone collectively to take so few bad shots that it made up for the bad spacing.
The Lakers had the 6th most efficient offense in the league despite Kobe missing 17 games, Shaq missing 15 games, and Malone missing 40 games. Looks to me like they had a pretty good offense, all things considered.
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