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Old 06-16-2008, 03:17 AM   #12701
Assani Fisher
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

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Originally Posted by Gary Stevenson View Post
it's tbach again. just scanned through this thread and have some more thoughts:

1. jesus, posey is not as good as josh smith. but who would i rather have? posey AINEC. posey isn't good offensively, but j-smoove hurts your team offensively. like really bad. posey's maybe a slight negative, but in a league with this much depth and with so many guys who can score and not turn the ball over like j-smoove does, i don't like him.

2. kidcolin, i probably disagree with 80% of your posts too.

3. i don't think clark has ever answered a question i have asked him. it's not like he ignores them, he just answers them in a way that either is (a) incomprehensible (IE doesnt make sense gramatically to the point where it's illegible) or (b) answers the question in a way that doesn't make sense.

most recent example was (paraphrased):
tbach: "Clark, what player picked after Posey would fit better on my team?"
clark: "I think lots of players are better than Posey"

great posting.


4. the amount that posey is underrated is sickening. i'm going to risk sounding like mark jackson, but posey does soooo many little things. and yes, he's up there as one of the best perimeter defenders in the nba today.
I agree with you that Clark often starts arguments then just stops responding.

I still disagree on Posey, and I think you guys continue to overrate today's role players and underrate role players of yesteryear. Not to pick on you EPip because I'm sure that there are others, but you've mentioned that you've never even heard of some of the role players from the 80s that have been selected. Do you not see how you most likely, therefore, overrate today's role players and underrate older ones?

I don't mind Posey, and its not a horrific pick at all imo. But it was a reach.
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Old 06-16-2008, 03:18 AM   #12702
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

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Robertson was a 1/2 whoops, sorry about Nance did it really quickly.
woops, thought about a different robertson.
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Old 06-16-2008, 03:20 AM   #12703
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

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woah, i thought gary was bobbo. now hes tbach. how does gary have 6600 posts? is he a pogger? is it a strat gimmick acct? such an enigma imo.
gary stevenson is a good friend of mine, he is the guy i go to all the celtics games with, and has a ton of posts because he posts in a variety of forums. i think he doesn't post that much in sporting events because it's a bit overwhelming, although he does love BBV.
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Old 06-16-2008, 03:23 AM   #12704
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

bobbo, is pp top 10 d in the league?
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Old 06-16-2008, 03:24 AM   #12705
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

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( this use to be the case, now with the way the game is officiated, I feel clueless about basketball )

There are many aspects of a basketball game, to have a winning team you need a good balance of everything. Scorers are valued a lot higher than they should be valued because that is the stat that the most casual fan notices first. In order for a certain player to score a certain about of points he needs his team to do the dirty work, the other aspects of the game. If paul pierce was running that same pick an roll with Kwame brown tonight there is no chance in hell he gets 38 points. The fact that the man setting the picks was garnett got Pierce a ton of scoring oppurtunities and yet garnett finishes the game with 13 points and pierce with 38. Does garnett get any credit for that in the stat sheet ? I already heard a bunch of members in the media saying how garnett had a terrible game after the 1st quarter. In order for that pick an roll to have worked all game long they needed shooters on the wings and posey is a better shooter than carmelo. Not only better shooter but a much better defender and team player so in the celtics case it is a no brainer for having posey over carmelo, and the results in the finals has proven the case for this particular scenario.

However the amount of scenarios in which you take posey or Carmelo is very few this is what makes Carmelo the much better ball player. IMO as long as I have even 1 eliter scorer on my team I will take posey over carmelo, I just think carmelo is such a cancer to a basketball team.
The bolded is what guys like you and EPip don't seem to understand. Even though Posey can hit the open 3 better than Carmelo, the defense will still respect Carmelo more than Posey when Pierce drives(thereby giving Pierce more open space). There are other aspects of spotting up besides hitting an open 3. You can't leave a good driver wide open because you'll be out of position once he starts his move to the hole and that is suicide against an elite finisher for example.
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Old 06-16-2008, 03:25 AM   #12706
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

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Elite defenders for this draft (past 30 years):

Kevin Garnett
Paul Pierce
Rajon Rondo
James Posey
Ray Allen
Sam Cassell
Larry Bird
Kevin McHale
Danny Ainge
Reggie Lewis
lol, nice.

glad to have ainge on my team!
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Old 06-16-2008, 03:25 AM   #12707
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

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bobbo, is pp top 10 d in the league?
To clarify we were saying he was a top 10 defensive SG/SF not top 10 defender out of every position.
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Old 06-16-2008, 03:26 AM   #12708
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

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ban worthy imo as I def got banned for something just like that
I gotta concur w/ epi here, i think franchise fired away a low blow. that said, he built it up beautifully, and does deserve SOME props for that.
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Old 06-16-2008, 03:27 AM   #12709
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

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bobbo, is pp top 10 d in the league?
absolutely not.
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Old 06-16-2008, 03:27 AM   #12710
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

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Originally Posted by Assani Fisher View Post
The bolded is what guys like you and EPip don't seem to understand. Even though Posey can hit the open 3 better than Carmelo, the defense will still respect Carmelo more than Posey when Pierce drives(thereby giving Pierce more open space). There are other aspects of spotting up besides hitting an open 3. You can't leave a good driver wide open because you'll be out of position once he starts his move to the hole and that is suicide against an elite finisher for example.
Disagree, I think your point works a lot better with players like Wade/Ellis who are insanley quick than a player like Carmelo who is a lot slower, being able to meet Carmelo at the ft line or a little below is a lot better than having to meet Wade/Ellis at the ft line or a little below.
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Old 06-16-2008, 03:28 AM   #12711
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

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To clarify we were saying he was a top 10 defensive SG/SF not top 10 defender out of every position.
and to clarify even further, its only when he wants to be which happens to coincide with when he does well.
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Old 06-16-2008, 03:29 AM   #12712
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

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and to clarify even further, its only when he wants to be which happens to coincide with when he does well.
pp for def player of the yr imo.
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Old 06-16-2008, 03:30 AM   #12713
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

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and to clarify even further, its only when he wants to be which happens to coincide with when he does well.
And to clarify even further than that, it's when he doesn't have to shoulder the entire offensive load and actually has people around him that will allow him not to have to create a shot for himself or his teammates on almost every possession.
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Old 06-16-2008, 03:30 AM   #12714
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

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pp for def player of the yr imo.
Ya kinda like how you said Steve Nash was better than Lebron.
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Old 06-16-2008, 03:31 AM   #12715
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

EPip,

Still waiting for you to admit you're wrong and change your mind about one single thing over the course of this thread.


Assani
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Old 06-16-2008, 03:31 AM   #12716
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

I'm going to reclarify my stance on PP's defense, because this year it's been incredible (that said, he's likely the fourth best defender on the team, and maybe only fifth best, since KG, then Perk and Rondo are better, and Posey is close) and it's always been "good". I would say:

is he a top 10 overall defender in THIS league? Absolutely not
is he a top 10 overall defender in the CURRENT NBA? Absolutely not
is he a top 10 overall wing defender in THIS league? Absolutely not
is he a top 10 overall wing defender in the CURRENT NBA? Probably, but I'd need to crunch notes.
is he a top 10 overall defensive SF (thus, top ~20 wing defender) in THIS league? I'd say probably.
is he a top 10 overall defensive SF in the current NBA? Obviously, but this doesn't mean a whole lot.

Not sure why we got stuck on Paul Pierce though. The more important Q is Posey, and I reckon they are very similar defensively, but would probably give a small nod to Posey. That said, the acclaims I posted above are my thoughts about Posey's defense too. To those that include him in the Raja Bell, Bruce Bowen, Shane Battier category: You're out of your mind.
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Old 06-16-2008, 03:31 AM   #12717
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

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EPip,

Still waiting for you to admit you're wrong and change your mind about one single thing over the course of this thread.


Assani
Assani still waiting for you to learn how to spell my name correctly.

EPiPeN11

Last edited by EPiPeN11; 06-16-2008 at 03:37 AM.
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Old 06-16-2008, 03:32 AM   #12718
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

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I gotta concur w/ epi here, i think franchise fired away a low blow. that said, he built it up beautifully, and does deserve SOME props for that.
If you can't joke about a guy blowing dudes than whats the point of joking?
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Old 06-16-2008, 03:32 AM   #12719
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

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And to clarify even further than that, it's when he doesn't have to shoulder the entire offensive load and actually has people around him that will allow him not to have to create a shot for himself or his teammates on almost every possession.
ok im just gonna say double standard.
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Old 06-16-2008, 03:33 AM   #12720
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

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ok im just gonna say double standard.
Hey man you are the one who said Nash was better than Lebron not me
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Old 06-16-2008, 03:33 AM   #12721
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

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To those that include him in the Raja Bell, Bruce Bowen, Shane Battier category: You're out of your mind.


good gawd thanks for some sanity, i can finally go to bed.
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Old 06-16-2008, 03:35 AM   #12722
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

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good gawd thanks for some sanity, i can finally go to bed.
Yea cause people put him in that catagory....(no one did)

Oh ya and notice how Bobbo said PP was probably a top 10 SG/SF defender in the current NBA...um ya go to bed
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Old 06-16-2008, 03:36 AM   #12723
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

On defense, Pierce/Posey are margainlly better(if at all) than a ton of guys who won't even go drafted imo.
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Old 06-16-2008, 03:37 AM   #12724
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

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Assani still waiting for you to learn how to spell my name correctly.
I never made the claim that I could spell it correctly. I believe you said that you do indeed go into debates with an open mind and a willingness to change your opinion, did you not?
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Old 06-16-2008, 03:40 AM   #12725
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

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I never made the claim that I could spell it correctly. I believe you said that you do indeed go into debates with an open mind and a willingness to change your opinion, did you not?
Yes I did Assani
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