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Old 06-16-2008, 02:36 AM   #12676
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

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dude lebron torched the celts until this playoff series. realize, im just arguing with u saying pp was some def force before this. obv he owned lbj this series but u simply cant say he was a lockdown def in his early yrs.
ya cause even elite defenders who are even better than Pierce is never get torched by Lebron....

Anyway no one is arguing Pierce's defense from after the ECF run in 2002 up until before this season was elite, because he was too busy shouldering the entire offensive load and his energy was more important to be used on offense than on defense, but if he is on a team where he doesn't have to shoulder the entire offensive load, he can play elite defense and def deserves to be mentioned in the tier 2 guys I mentioned and is better than all the tier 3 guys except for possibly Lebron.
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Old 06-16-2008, 02:39 AM   #12677
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

vic,

he was a very strong defensive player until around 2003 or so.
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Old 06-16-2008, 02:41 AM   #12678
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

so i take it your arguemnt is that when pp wants to play d, and is forced to play d, he is one of the best.

and when he goes for yrs without shutting ppl down its just be he cant be bothered to show the effort.

but when his opponent does poor its bc pierce is all over him.

well, i suppose i lose another se argument. sigh.
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Old 06-16-2008, 02:42 AM   #12679
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

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vic,

he was a very strong defensive player until around 2003 or so.
ok, i will be even more blunt: how does a guy who hasnt played d in 5 yrs be one of the best?
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Old 06-16-2008, 02:44 AM   #12680
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

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so i take it your arguemnt is that when pp wants to play d, and is forced to play d, he is one of the best.

and when he goes for yrs without shutting ppl down its just be he cant be bothered to show the effort.

but when his opponent does poor its bc pierce is all over him.

well, i suppose i lose another se argument. sigh.
Wft no am I speaking spanish?

My argument is when Pierce doesn't have to carry an entire team offensivley (ie has other people who can create their own shots for the team so he doesn't have to on each play) he can play great/elite defense because he doesn't have to use up all his energy on the offensive end.
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Old 06-16-2008, 02:46 AM   #12681
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

tbh i find your argument a stretch. you are saying when pp is on a strong team his d is better. makes sense ofc. but i dont think that is enough to propel him to the top d list.
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Old 06-16-2008, 02:49 AM   #12682
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

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tbh i find your argument a stretch. you are saying when pp is on a strong team his d is better. makes sense ofc. but i dont think that is enough to propel him to the top d list.
I don't see how it's a stretch, PP is human just like every other Bball player and although he is very well conditioned players like Kobe are even more well conditioned yet they can't play elite offense/defense on every single play so obviously Pierce can't either. I mean players get tired, that's why they don't play all 48 minutes, and to conserve energy so they can play more minutes, they had to sarcifice some of their defensive energy to use it for the offensive end.

I mean these players use up so much energy on the offensive end, especially when they have to carry the entire team because there are no other very good offensive players, so they are unable to go all out on the defensive end (it's just not possible for them unless they want to cut their minutes more) so they use more energy on offense than on defense as their offense is much more valueable to the team since their team is lacking any real good offensive options besides them.
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Old 06-16-2008, 02:53 AM   #12683
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

well, ofc ppl get tired.

im just sayin, pp has never been considered a high tier defender. obv i can never win this argument bc another celt homer will show up here and say, zome pp was so nasty in 01. gg intehnet as always.
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Old 06-16-2008, 02:55 AM   #12684
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

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well, ofc ppl get tired.

im just sayin, pp has never been considered a high tier defender. obv i can never win this argument bc another celt homer will show up here and say, zome pp was so nasty in 01. gg intehnet as always.
He was considered a high tier defender (probably 3rd tier) in the Obrien days ie his younger years and like I said missed out on his true elite defensive years (almost every players defensive prime assuming they stay healthy is between the years Pierce was carrying an entire teams offensive load) and proved it when he suddenly became a great defensive player once again in his 30s when he didn't have to shoulder the entire offensive load.
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Old 06-16-2008, 02:59 AM   #12685
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

well, fine he was exceptional pre 2003. i didnt watch hoops much then. after fratello left and before lebron came was dead time. the tyrone hill yrs were tough.

anyway, if u say he was hibernating i will believe it. pp fo prez.
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Old 06-16-2008, 03:00 AM   #12686
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

Elite defenders for this draft (past 30 years):

Kevin Garnett
Paul Pierce
Rajon Rondo
James Posey
Ray Allen
Sam Cassell
Larry Bird
Kevin McHale
Danny Ainge
Reggie Lewis
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Old 06-16-2008, 03:03 AM   #12687
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

Oh and Doc Rivers.
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Old 06-16-2008, 03:03 AM   #12688
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

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Originally Posted by Franchise 60 View Post
Elite defenders for this draft (past 30 years):

Kevin Garnett
Paul Pierce
Rajon Rondo
James Posey
Ray Allen
Sam Cassell
Larry Bird
Kevin McHale
Danny Ainge
Reggie Lewis
fail, I love how you guys claim I am a Celtics homer yet I have constantly made arguments against KG, Rondo, Cassell, Bird, and Reggie Lewis in this thread. I would also never call Ray Allen/Danny Ainge's defense elite.
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Old 06-16-2008, 03:04 AM   #12689
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

Putting words in your mouth amirite???
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Old 06-16-2008, 03:06 AM   #12690
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

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Putting words in your mouth amirite???
yes
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Old 06-16-2008, 03:07 AM   #12691
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

I thought you liked things in your mouth though?
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Old 06-16-2008, 03:08 AM   #12692
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

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I thought you liked things in your mouth though?
ban worthy imo as I def got banned for something just like that
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Old 06-16-2008, 03:10 AM   #12693
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Old 06-16-2008, 03:11 AM   #12694
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

Ya cause i'm really crying wtf, I just said it was ban worthy (and it is).
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Old 06-16-2008, 03:11 AM   #12695
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

wow franchise. the build up. the timing. the technique. beautiful. like a great dutch goal imo.
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Old 06-16-2008, 03:12 AM   #12696
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

Franchise,

He's right.
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Old 06-16-2008, 03:12 AM   #12697
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Old 06-16-2008, 03:12 AM   #12698
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

Do what you gotta do. Well worth it.
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Old 06-16-2008, 03:15 AM   #12699
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

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it's tbach again. just scanned through this thread and have some more thoughts:

1. jesus, posey is not as good as josh smith. but who would i rather have? posey AINEC. posey isn't good offensively, but j-smoove hurts your team offensively. like really bad. posey's maybe a slight negative, but in a league with this much depth and with so many guys who can score and not turn the ball over like j-smoove does, i don't like him.

2. kidcolin, i probably disagree with 80% of your posts too.

3. i don't think clark has ever answered a question i have asked him. it's not like he ignores them, he just answers them in a way that either is (a) incomprehensible (IE doesnt make sense gramatically to the point where it's illegible) or (b) answers the question in a way that doesn't make sense.

most recent example was (paraphrased):
tbach: "Clark, what player picked after Posey would fit better on my team?"
clark: "I think lots of players are better than Posey"

great posting.


4. the amount that posey is underrated is sickening. i'm going to risk sounding like mark jackson, but posey does soooo many little things. and yes, he's up there as one of the best perimeter defenders in the nba today.
good posting imo.
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Old 06-16-2008, 03:15 AM   #12700
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

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Originally Posted by Gary Stevenson View Post
(still tbach)

So I've decided that Clark's been bad lately. I feel bad about this because he used to post pretty well in this thread. In an effort to help him, I'm going to explain why he's wrong.




This is an attempt at sarcasm. What Clark is failing to see is that, while not the only two types of players, they are two of the most effective, especially when together. Focal points, guys with the ball in their hands, work more effectively with space. Guys that can knock down the deep ball either will provide space, or will knock down the deep ball.



I like this whole "dynamic" thing. I'm going to use Tony Allen, who won't be selected, as an example. When Pierce went down last season, he became the "focal point" of the Celtics offense, because he's a "dynamic" offensive player. So why won't he get selected? Because he's not efficient at what he does. It's pretty simple. With players who aren't primary options, you should be looking for players who will provide things besides bulk scoring.



This one is pretty obvious and I'm sure you already know the answer, but I'll take it on anyways. Jerry Stackhouse is better than Posey because he can carry a team. Posey is more valuable because he adds to a team that Stackhouse would detract from. Posey adds because he doesn't chuck up bad shots, doesn't turn the ball over a lot, plays good defense, and is a good teammate. Stackhouse detracts because he chucks up bad shots, turns the ball over, and doesn't play good defense.



Rodman wasn't better than a number of guys taken after him. That doesn't make it a bad pick. It's easy to build around Rodman because he does a couple things at an elite level, so in the future you can build around things he doesn't do well.



A mild attempt at humor by clark. Pretty standard for like half of his posts. Did anyone call Posey a stud? No. I even openly admit he's not as good as people taken after him, but he's more valuable to my team than anyone who was taken after him (and a wide number of players taken before).



Another attempt at humor by clark. All of those players, besides one, were taken top 2 rounds. Nobody is arguing you couldn't make a stacked team with players from the first two rounds. The argument is very simple: taking a guy like Posey is way better than Stackhouse (sorry to pick on Stack, but he works well for my example), because of what he adds and what he doesn't detract.



Nope, that belongs to kidcolin for his mark jackson impression.



Pattern.



Depends on your team. And if you don't realize this, then I'm surprised you were able to build your team that effectively (besides Mookie Blaylock). You're treating this like it's fantasy sports.



See what I mean?




Is this just what you think? Or is there something to substantiate this? You're better than that.



Posey is hated by Bulls fans because he owned Hinrich and Deng.



Clark, I hope my post helps you in your posting and your basketball knowledge. I hope there won't be a snide response, because that will mean my effort will be a waste.
wow, i gotta say, great work tbach.
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