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Old 06-16-2008, 01:42 AM   #12651
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

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Originally Posted by EPiPeN11 View Post
I think he does fit into that group (although hes the worst defender of the group)

All-NBA defensive teams aren't the end all be all.
you're right, but neither are any statistics or awards.

its not like he's even getting any consideration. his career voting history for DPoY (usually about 15 players get votes per year):
1 third place vote (t13th in points) in 05-06 with MIA
1 third place vote (t10th in points) in 03-04 with MEM
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Old 06-16-2008, 01:44 AM   #12652
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

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I'm just glad McHale and Posey didn't end up on the same team...they would have crushed everyone.
doesn't matter, bc ePeen has subtly been hinting that Bowen, Bell, and Posey are equivalent, so his team won't take the flak if the "good shooter/very good defender" argument fails
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Old 06-16-2008, 01:44 AM   #12653
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

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you're right, but neither are any statistics or awards.

its not like he's even getting any consideration. his career voting history for DPoY (usually about 15 players get votes per year):
1 third place vote (t13th in points) in 05-06 with MIA
1 third place vote (t10th in points) in 03-04 with MEM
Ok well who in the NBA would u consider a better defender than him right now at the SG/SF spot that I didn't name (Posey is obv stuck in an era where there are more than 4 elite defenders at the SG/SF spot who are all better than him so he will obv get less consideration than them)
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Old 06-16-2008, 01:55 AM   #12654
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

I like the Gill pick. I would have taken him if I couldn't get Francis.
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Old 06-16-2008, 01:55 AM   #12655
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

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Originally Posted by EPiPeN11 View Post
Ok well who in the NBA would u consider a better defender than him right now at the SG/SF spot that I didn't name (Posey is obv stuck in an era where there are more than 4 elite defenders at the SG/SF spot who are all better than him so he will obv get less consideration than them)
wing defenders
tier 1: Bowen, Bell, Battier, Kobe
tier 2: Prince, AK47, Artest, Pierce (i think his D has been pretty underrated over his career, but not elite)
tier 3 (a big jumble): Posey, Butler, Deng, Josh Howard, Iguodala, Gerald Wallace (some say Ginobili, Josh Smith, and a few undrafted players. prime KG would be in this tier, maybe the above one)

so 8 better, and 5-10ish equivalents
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Old 06-16-2008, 01:59 AM   #12656
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

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wing defenders
tier 1: Bowen, Bell, Battier, Kobe
tier 2: Prince, AK47, Artest, Pierce (i think his D has been pretty underrated over his career, but not elite)
tier 3 (a big jumble): Posey, Butler, Deng, Josh Howard, Iguodala, Gerald Wallace (some say Ginobili, Josh Smith, and a few undrafted players. prime KG would be in this tier, maybe the above one)

so 8 better, and 10ish equivalents
Ok fair enough, this is my list

tier 1: Bowen, Bell, Battier, Kobe, Artest, Prince

tier 2: Pierce, AK47, Posey (I think Pierce/AK47 are slightly better than Posey but it isn't by much)

tier 3: Deng, Josh Howard, Iggy, Wallace

So ya our lists are very much alike and I would rate Bowen, Bell, Battier, Kobe, Artest, Prince, Pierce, and AK47 ahead of Posey (8 as well). I still think Posey is the worst of elite, regardless it's an obvious nitpick over the word elite, if you don't think hes elite you def have to admit hes in the top 10 and is def one of the best "non-elite" defenders at the SG/SF spot
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Old 06-16-2008, 02:03 AM   #12657
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

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Originally Posted by KLJ View Post
wing defenders
tier 1: Bowen, Bell, Battier, Kobe
tier 2: Prince, AK47, Artest, Pierce (i think his D has been pretty underrated over his career, but not elite)
tier 3 (a big jumble): Posey, Butler, Deng, Josh Howard, Iguodala, Gerald Wallace (some say Ginobili, Josh Smith, and a few undrafted players. prime KG would be in this tier, maybe the above one)

so 8 better, and 5-10ish equivalents

lebron imo
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Old 06-16-2008, 02:03 AM   #12658
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

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I still think Posey is the worst of elite, regardless it's an obvious nitpick over the word elite, if you don't think hes elite you def have to admit hes in the top 10 and is def one of the best "non-elite" defenders at the SG/SF spot
if someone put a gun to my head, i would say he's the 15th best defender at the SG/SF spot. like i said though, he can be as high as 9 and as low as maybe 20. i think elite should be top 5ish, give or take. if this is a nitpick, fair enough. i'm a bit of a nit anyway
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Old 06-16-2008, 02:04 AM   #12659
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

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lebron imo
Ya true I forgot about Lebron, dude has stepped up his d a ton i'd def put him in at least tier 3
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Old 06-16-2008, 02:04 AM   #12660
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

i mean seriously, u guys overrate pierce at d so much its beyond rediculous.
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Old 06-16-2008, 02:06 AM   #12661
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

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if someone put a gun to my head, i would say he's the 15th best defender at the SG/SF spot. like i said though, he can be as high as 9 and as low as maybe 20. i think elite should be top 5ish, give or take. if this is a nitpick, fair enough. i'm a bit of a nit anyway
ok fair enough, I think there are a lot of close defenders to Posey (athlough I could never name 20 that could possibly be better at the SG/SF spot, more like at most 15) but I do think Posey is the 9th best defender in the NBA currently (although there isn't a huge difference between him and say the 14-15th best SG/SF defender.)
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Old 06-16-2008, 02:06 AM   #12662
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

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lebron imo
oh, duh. im sure i missed others. i think he's tier 3, with a great likeliness of becoming tier 2, and that he easily has the tools to become tier 1
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Old 06-16-2008, 02:07 AM   #12663
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

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i mean seriously, u guys overrate pierce at d so much its beyond rediculous.
err... no. Have you watched the playoffs, at all?
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Old 06-16-2008, 02:08 AM   #12664
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

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i mean seriously, u guys overrate pierce at d so much its beyond rediculous.
No Pierce was amazing on D when he was younger and playing for Obrien, then he had to shoulder the offensive load even more (very similar to Kobe obv Kobe is better but it's the same situation type) and his d fell off, now that Pierce doesn't have to create/have the ball in his hands on every play he can focus more energy on D and has become that same defensive force he was as a young player (infact I think we missed out on Pierce's best defensive years because he was busy shouldering the entire offensive load and only got to see his great D during his younger years and now during the start of his older years)
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Old 06-16-2008, 02:09 AM   #12665
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

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i mean seriously, u guys overrate pierce at d so much its beyond rediculous.
disagree, although i concede that i could be wrong.

my analysis of pierce is based on statistics (which say he's very, very good), playoff games (mostly recent because the celtics were pretty bad after antoine left), and a few regular season games/year.
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Old 06-16-2008, 02:10 AM   #12666
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

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Originally Posted by EPiPeN11 View Post
ok fair enough, I think there are a lot of close defenders to Posey (athlough I could never name 20 that could possibly be better at the SG/SF spot, more like at most 15) but I do think Posey is the 9th best defender in the NBA currently (although there isn't a huge difference between him and say the 14-15th best SG/SF defender.)
So he is the 9th best wing defender right now (debatable), what is he of the past 30 years? He isn't even sniffing elite status in this draft.
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Old 06-16-2008, 02:11 AM   #12667
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

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So he is the 9th best wing defender right now (debatable), what is he of the past 30 years? He isn't even sniffing elite status in this draft.
Again this is nitpicking the word elite, at worst you have to conceed he is a very good defender which is why I put very good/elite next to a bunch of those players as it could go either way.
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Old 06-16-2008, 02:12 AM   #12668
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

a month ago pierce is not in these discussions for great defensive players.
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Old 06-16-2008, 02:12 AM   #12669
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

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a month ago pierce is not in these discussions for great defensive players.
disagree, Pierce has played incredible D all year long, the playoffs did however cement that fact considering players are a lot of the times judged on what they do in the playoffs.

And you could also say the same thing about ur boy Lebron, he def was not in these discussions a year ago either.
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Old 06-16-2008, 02:24 AM   #12670
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

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disagree, Pierce has played incredible D all year long,
lol. ok dude. u really think pierce is consistently named with tayshaun, ak47 and artest at d? even at the end of this regular season u get laughed off the planet if u make this claim.

oh wow, he did well vs lebron and nows hes elite. thats it, 6 games vs lebron and hes top 10 d in the league. gimme a fckn break.
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Old 06-16-2008, 02:27 AM   #12671
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

It's not like the C's were far and away the best defensive team in the league this year or anything.
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Old 06-16-2008, 02:29 AM   #12672
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

also, this is how lebron did against celts for his career.

http://www.basketball-reference.com/...=&order_by=pts

seems kinda dumb to only look at last 7 games.
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Old 06-16-2008, 02:30 AM   #12673
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

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lol. ok dude. u really think pierce is consistently named with tayshaun, ak47 and artest at d? even at the end of this regular season u get laughed off the planet if u make this claim.

oh wow, he did well vs lebron and nows hes elite. thats it, 6 games vs lebron and hes top 10 d in the league. gimme a fckn break.
With Prince/Artest no (that's why they are tier 1), with AK47 yes although I think AK47 is prob a little better (then again I also think AK47's defense is overrated just like someone like Josh Smith's is because they put up a bunch of steals/blocks on the stat sheet)

He did well vs Lebron/whoever he had to guard during the regular season/was an amazing defender when he was younger than fell off likley because he had to shoulder the entire offensive load on his team and doesn't even have as much endurance as Kobe does (someone who also fell off on D after having to shoulder the entire offensive load as well).
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Old 06-16-2008, 02:31 AM   #12674
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

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It's not like the C's were far and away the best defensive team in the league this year or anything.
im not sure your point. are u saying its bc of pierce? or his teammates? all i know is the celts werent so great at d before. and lebron torched pp for years.

all im sayin is pp is not in the top 8 or wherever epeen is putting pp. im sure hes an excellent defender and esp when he wants to be. hes not on bowens level.

and he doesnt have to be.
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Old 06-16-2008, 02:34 AM   #12675
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

dude lebron torched the celts until this playoff series. realize, im just arguing with u saying pp was some def force before this. obv he owned lbj this series but u simply cant say he was a lockdown def in his early yrs.
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