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Old 06-16-2008, 12:34 AM   #12626
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

oh yeah, and basically the only thing on my mind right now is posey because that's what the last 200 posts have been about.
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Old 06-16-2008, 12:40 AM   #12627
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

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4. the amount that posey is underrated is sickening\\. i'm going to risk sounding like mark jackson, but posey does soooo many little things. and yes, he's up there as one of the best perimeter defenders in the nba today
Exact opposite actually.
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Old 06-16-2008, 12:45 AM   #12628
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

Will someone please tell me what we're arguing now, I've lost track.
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Old 06-16-2008, 12:49 AM   #12629
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

hi bobbo.
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Old 06-16-2008, 01:01 AM   #12630
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

(still tbach)

So I've decided that Clark's been bad lately. I feel bad about this because he used to post pretty well in this thread. In an effort to help him, I'm going to explain why he's wrong.


Quote:
Originally Posted by ClarkNasty View Post
Because the only two options are "camp out and shoot 3's" or "focal point of the offense" amirite?
This is an attempt at sarcasm. What Clark is failing to see is that, while not the only two types of players, they are two of the most effective, especially when together. Focal points, guys with the ball in their hands, work more effectively with space. Guys that can knock down the deep ball either will provide space, or will knock down the deep ball.

Quote:
No. Kersey was much more dynamic on offense.

And I don't hate James. It's funny how you think someones a bad pick and suddenly you must "hate" him. Posey was picked 40 spots ago and most players taken since him are better players. Do you disagree with that? Really?
I like this whole "dynamic" thing. I'm going to use Tony Allen, who won't be selected, as an example. When Pierce went down last season, he became the "focal point" of the Celtics offense, because he's a "dynamic" offensive player. So why won't he get selected? Because he's not efficient at what he does. It's pretty simple. With players who aren't primary options, you should be looking for players who will provide things besides bulk scoring.

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Originally Posted by ClarkNasty View Post
I have no clue how the efff someone can be "not better" but "more valuable".
This one is pretty obvious and I'm sure you already know the answer, but I'll take it on anyways. Jerry Stackhouse is better than Posey because he can carry a team. Posey is more valuable because he adds to a team that Stackhouse would detract from. Posey adds because he doesn't chuck up bad shots, doesn't turn the ball over a lot, plays good defense, and is a good teammate. Stackhouse detracts because he chucks up bad shots, turns the ball over, and doesn't play good defense.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ClarkNasty View Post
I largely think this is BS to justify picks and mimic what we see from teams in the NBA. In real life these "worse but somehow more valuable" guys are there becuase of a finite talent pool available.

No one has to argue that Dennis Rodman wasn't better than some subsequent guys, but was somehow more valuable. Rodman was simply better.
Rodman wasn't better than a number of guys taken after him. That doesn't make it a bad pick. It's easy to build around Rodman because he does a couple things at an elite level, so in the future you can build around things he doesn't do well.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ClarkNasty View Post
Obviously he is. The criteria for being a stud are two:

1. above average D
2. Hit open 3's at 38% in your prime

Nothing else matters really.
A mild attempt at humor by clark. Pretty standard for like half of his posts. Did anyone call Posey a stud? No. I even openly admit he's not as good as people taken after him, but he's more valuable to my team than anyone who was taken after him (and a wide number of players taken before).

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Originally Posted by ClarkNasty View Post
It's amazing how the original Dream Team was even able to win with all those stars.
Another attempt at humor by clark. All of those players, besides one, were taken top 2 rounds. Nobody is arguing you couldn't make a stacked team with players from the first two rounds. The argument is very simple: taking a guy like Posey is way better than Stackhouse (sorry to pick on Stack, but he works well for my example), because of what he adds and what he doesn't detract.

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Originally Posted by ClarkNasty View Post
Post of the thread.
Nope, that belongs to kidcolin for his mark jackson impression.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ClarkNasty View Post
The solution is more bad players!
Pattern.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ClarkNasty View Post
Is it preferable to have a one dimensional role player, or a complete, better player. You are posing a false choice.
Depends on your team. And if you don't realize this, then I'm surprised you were able to build your team that effectively (besides Mookie Blaylock). You're treating this like it's fantasy sports.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ClarkNasty View Post
James Posey and all above-average defenders who are also offensively inept players other than being able to shoot 3pters at a 38% clip or so >>>> Carmelo, Josh Smith and most certainly Jerome Kersey.
See what I mean?


Quote:
Originally Posted by ClarkNasty View Post
I think Posey has a league worst type of shooting % from inside the arc last few years.
Is this just what you think? Or is there something to substantiate this? You're better than that.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ClarkNasty View Post
He is? Why? This is seriously the first I've heard of this.
Posey is hated by Bulls fans because he owned Hinrich and Deng.



Clark, I hope my post helps you in your posting and your basketball knowledge. I hope there won't be a snide response, because that will mean my effort will be a waste.
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Old 06-16-2008, 01:03 AM   #12631
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

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Originally Posted by Franchise 60 View Post
Exact opposite actually.
This is the opposite of a quality post.
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Old 06-16-2008, 01:04 AM   #12632
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

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Originally Posted by KLJ View Post
apologies, you're right. i remembered your statement wrong. for clarification, here it is:

"There only 2 PG's in this entire draft who can shoot lights out and play elite defense, yes only 2 where at sg/sf there are probably 40-50, and they are John Stockton and Chancey Billups."

although on a side note, lol at there being 40-50 SG/SF who can shoot lights out and play elite defense.
Smoke screen ftw, I obv knew there weren't 40-50 SG/SF elite defenders who also had very good 3pt shots, hence why I claimed there were in hopes many people pased on them, which it looks like seemed to work

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jon34 View Post
Ugh. This argument is exasperating.

I don't think guys like Bowen or Bell are elite shooters at all. In some years they may put up a great percentage, sure. But 3p% or TS% are not the be all, end all of what is a good shooter. The best shooters can make shots not just off the catch, but also off screens, off the dribble, and falling away. Bowen, Bell and Battier get tons of wide open looks. If you took those guys and put them in shooting contests against "non-elite" shooters like Arenas or Paul Pierce, my money is on the latter pair every time. Those guys are all good to excellent role players, and their ability to hit open 3's makes them a nice kickout option on offense in addition to their very good defense. But that doesn't mean they are elite shooters or close to it. They shoot a high percentage because they are always so open.

The elite shooters in the NBA are Ray Allen & Michael Redd, maybe Nash & Others. Peja and [undrafted player] are a little past peak, but still excellent shooters. That should be enough names, but I'm sure there are more before the trio we are talking about.
No one is saying Bell/Battier are better shooters than Ray Allen/Michael Redd etc

Quote:
Originally Posted by mjw0586 View Post
How can you possibly comment on Kersey's off-the-ball offense if you never saw him play??
Because I use logic that he can't shot the ball and plays SF therefore if you don't have a bigman who can play outside (most bigmen play inside) his off the ball offense will be more limited

Quote:
Originally Posted by mjw0586 View Post
You have this way backwards. As someone who watches 70+ Pistons games a year, I can tell you without a doubt that Rip is a better shooter because of his off-the-ball movement. When he is forced to create for himself, his shooting suffers big time.
When the heck did anyone say Rip could create for himself off the dribble?

Quote:
Originally Posted by BobboFitos View Post
Remember that clark is a bulls fan, and posey is the antichrist to the bulls.
qft

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gary Stevenson View Post
it's tbach again. just scanned through this thread and have some more thoughts:

1. jesus, posey is not as good as josh smith. but who would i rather have? posey AINEC. posey isn't good offensively, but j-smoove hurts your team offensively. like really bad. posey's maybe a slight negative, but in a league with this much depth and with so many guys who can score and not turn the ball over like j-smoove does, i don't like him.
qft

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gary Stevenson View Post
3. i don't think clark has ever answered a question i have asked him. it's not like he ignores them, he just answers them in a way that either is (a) incomprehensible (IE doesnt make sense gramatically to the point where it's illegible) or (b) answers the question in a way that doesn't make sense.

most recent example was (paraphrased):
tbach: "Clark, what player picked after Posey would fit better on my team?"
clark: "I think lots of players are better than Posey"

great posting.
qft

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gary Stevenson View Post
4. the amount that posey is underrated is sickening. i'm going to risk sounding like mark jackson, but posey does soooo many little things. and yes, he's up there as one of the best perimeter defenders in the nba today.
qft

Also it's really amazing to see how little people realize how big floor spacing is in the NBA, there is a reason why pretty much every NBA coach talks about it.

Last edited by EPiPeN11; 06-16-2008 at 01:13 AM.
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Old 06-16-2008, 01:16 AM   #12633
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

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Originally Posted by sethypooh21 View Post
Well obviously, if he can't actually play he has no value. 6 Years of Lewis still more value than Posey's entire career.
no.
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Old 06-16-2008, 01:16 AM   #12634
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

Robertson was a 1/2 whoops, sorry about Nance did it really quickly.
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Old 06-16-2008, 01:18 AM   #12635
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

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Originally Posted by tbach24 View Post
This is the opposite of a quality post.
What the **** do you know about quality posts?
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Old 06-16-2008, 01:19 AM   #12636
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

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Originally Posted by sethypooh21 View Post
I've just realized what Epip's problem is. He grew up only seeing post-expansion NBA when very few teams have had more than 2 or 3 guys who could do more than shoot open J's on offense, so all he's seen is team that run the same iso/pick and roll sets over and over again because otherwise they ended up with James Posey trying to create one on one.

There was a time when the fifth best player on a good team was competent to make plays with the ball in his hands...
good point.
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Old 06-16-2008, 01:20 AM   #12637
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

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Originally Posted by Franchise 60 View Post
What the **** do you know about quality posts?
Quote:
This is the opposite of a quality post
How about instead of saying "Exact opposite actually" you should explain why you think that. You might actually contribute to the thread if you do.
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Old 06-16-2008, 01:23 AM   #12638
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

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Originally Posted by tbach24 View Post
How about instead of saying "Exact opposite actually" you should explain why you think that. You might actually contribute to the thread if you do.
haha sorry but I did already. I was in the thread contributing to the discussion that you are now currently catching up on.

Thanks though.
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Old 06-16-2008, 01:24 AM   #12639
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

He is overrated because when he was picked it was a Celtics circle jerk in here with everyone gushing about how awesome Posey is. Then Clark and some others disagree, and now he is incredibly underrated? Give me a break.
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Old 06-16-2008, 01:27 AM   #12640
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

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Originally Posted by Franchise 60 View Post
He is overrated because when he was picked it was a Celtics circle jerk in here with everyone gushing about how awesome Posey is. Then Clark and some others disagree, and now he is incredibly underrated? Give me a break.
I loved Posey even before he joined the Celtics.

I can see a case for taking Bowen/Bell over him (infact I would) but honestly is he that much worse than those 2? (I think those 2 easily should have went in the 5th round and possibly mid-late 4th)
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Old 06-16-2008, 01:28 AM   #12641
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

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Originally Posted by tbach24 View Post
How about instead of saying "Exact opposite actually" you should explain why you think that. You might actually contribute to the thread if you do.
ill do it for him.

capone0 listed best defensive wings as:
"Michael
Pippen
Prince
Battier
Bowen
Bell
AK47
Ron Ron
Christie
Eddie Jones

Kobe
Mckey
Pressey
Moncrief
Posey"

ePeen's list of elite defenders (currently in the NBA) is as follows:
"Bowen
Bell
Battier
Prince
Posey
Kobe (if he doesn't have to shoulder the offensive load a ton)
Pierce (same as Kobe)"

im going to assume Pierce is a homer pick (although his defense is very good, just not what i would call elite).

other than that, what does every one of the other players have in common? multiple all defensive selections. Battier only has one, but Posey has zero.

no offense, but is it a coincidence that two of Poseys biggest supporters are hudge celtics fans?
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Old 06-16-2008, 01:28 AM   #12642
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

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Originally Posted by Franchise 60 View Post
He is overrated because when he was picked it was a Celtics circle jerk in here with everyone gushing about how awesome Posey is. Then Clark and some others disagree, and now he is incredibly underrated? Give me a break.
Okay, this is better, but I still disagree. If you think I picked Posey because of some Celtics circle jerk, you're kidding yourself. I picked him because he was the BPA for my team. And Clark and others who disagreed never really added anything substantial except to basically say "POSEY SUX!!!!!"
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Old 06-16-2008, 01:30 AM   #12643
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

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Originally Posted by KLJ View Post
ill do it for him.

capone0 listed best defensive wings as:
"Michael
Pippen
Prince
Battier
Bowen
Bell
AK47
Ron Ron
Christie
Eddie Jones

Kobe
Mckey
Pressey
Moncrief
Posey"

ePeen's list of elite defenders is as follows:
"Bowen
Bell
Battier
Prince
Posey
Kobe (if he doesn't have to shoulder the offensive load a ton)
Pierce (same as Kobe)"

im going to assume Pierce is a homer pick (although his defense is very good, just not what i would call elite).

other than that, what does every one of the other players have in common? multiple all defensive selections. Battier only has one, but Posey has zero.

no offense, but is it a coincidence that two of Poseys biggest supporters are hudge celtics fans?
lol that was my list of NBA defenders in the NBA right now, I thought that was obvious, I guess it went over some peoples head kinda like how this same person said I said Billups was the 2nd best PG defender in the entire draft (lol) when I really said that Billups was the only elite defender/lights out shooter for a PG in this draft besides Stockton.

EDIT: and you can add Ron Artest to my list of elite defenders in the NBA RIGHT NOW (I forgot him ldo)

Last edited by EPiPeN11; 06-16-2008 at 01:43 AM.
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Old 06-16-2008, 01:32 AM   #12644
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

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Originally Posted by EPiPeN11 View Post
lol that was my list of NBA defenders in the NBA right now, I thought that was obvious, I guess it went over some peoples head kinda like how this same person said I said Billups was the 2nd best PG in the entire draft (lol) when I really said that Billups was the only elite defender/lights out shooter for a PG in this draft besides Stockton.
i knew this, and what does you clarifying it change about posey not fitting in that group?

my point was not that your list sucks (it was actually pretty decent). my point was that posey is obviously being overrated (rather than underrated, wtf?) because people are actually saying that he belongs on those two lists
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Old 06-16-2008, 01:33 AM   #12645
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

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Okay, this is better, but I still disagree. If you think I picked Posey because of some Celtics circle jerk, you're kidding yourself. I picked him because he was the BPA for my team. And Clark and others who disagreed never really added anything substantial except to basically say "POSEY SUX!!!!!"
I'm not saying you picked him because of a Celtics circle jerk, Im saying I think he is being overrated because of the large number of Celtics fans active in this thread.

I think people are also overrating the importance of picking role players over guys who were effective starters so that also goes into the Posey stuff.

And lastly, I don't think he is elite at either defending or shooting like some are claiming. But I think there is a big difference between good-very good and elite when dealing with a pool of players that spans over 30 years.
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Old 06-16-2008, 01:33 AM   #12646
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

( this use to be the case, now with the way the game is officiated, I feel clueless about basketball )

There are many aspects of a basketball game, to have a winning team you need a good balance of everything. Scorers are valued a lot higher than they should be valued because that is the stat that the most casual fan notices first. In order for a certain player to score a certain about of points he needs his team to do the dirty work, the other aspects of the game. If paul pierce was running that same pick an roll with Kwame brown tonight there is no chance in hell he gets 38 points. The fact that the man setting the picks was garnett got Pierce a ton of scoring oppurtunities and yet garnett finishes the game with 13 points and pierce with 38. Does garnett get any credit for that in the stat sheet ? I already heard a bunch of members in the media saying how garnett had a terrible game after the 1st quarter. In order for that pick an roll to have worked all game long they needed shooters on the wings and posey is a better shooter than carmelo. Not only better shooter but a much better defender and team player so in the celtics case it is a no brainer for having posey over carmelo, and the results in the finals has proven the case for this particular scenario.

However the amount of scenarios in which you take posey or Carmelo is very few this is what makes Carmelo the much better ball player. IMO as long as I have even 1 eliter scorer on my team I will take posey over carmelo, I just think carmelo is such a cancer to a basketball team.
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Old 06-16-2008, 01:34 AM   #12647
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

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i knew this, and what does you clarifying it change about posey not fitting in that group?
I think he does fit into that group (although hes the worst defender of the group)

All-NBA defensive teams aren't the end all be all.
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Old 06-16-2008, 01:34 AM   #12648
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

woah, i thought gary was bobbo. now hes tbach. how does gary have 6600 posts? is he a pogger? is it a strat gimmick acct? such an enigma imo.
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Old 06-16-2008, 01:37 AM   #12649
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

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woah, i thought gary was bobbo. now hes tbach. how does gary have 6600 posts? is he a pogger? is it a strat gimmick acct? such an enigma imo.
He started out as a gimmick acct trying to troll bobbo, but he turned into a legit MSNL poster. But I stacked him at 100 max yesterday WOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO (AQo >>>> JJ ALL DAY BABY)
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Old 06-16-2008, 01:40 AM   #12650
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

I'm just glad McHale and Posey didn't end up on the same team...they would have crushed everyone.
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