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Old 06-15-2008, 07:53 PM   #12576
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

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Originally Posted by Assani Fisher View Post
If a guy like Wade/Ellis is left open, he is very tough to stop when the pass goes to him and then he drives. Players who are elite at driving to the hoop are tough enough to stop when the defense is set up when they begin their drive. I think you continue to fail to understand this point.
No I understand this but Wade/Ellis are some of the very few ones who can do this and even then they are easier to guard than someone taking a wide open 3 who is a very good/elite shooter.

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Old 06-15-2008, 07:54 PM   #12577
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

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jesus yes. go to an NBA game and watch them warm up. role players are expected to shoot well because their game shots are essentially the same as warmup shots (minus fatigue factors). the open 3 that kobe had in the last game was probably the most open he's been in years, whereas battier/bowen/etc see this **** every game.
I obviously agree with this as well, that's why I consider Kobe a better shooter than Battier/Bell etc. even if his percentages don't show it (infact if you look a few pages back, I said players who have to create their own shots shoot lower percentages than ones who dont)

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Old 06-15-2008, 08:09 PM   #12578
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

One might think an elite defender would have made an all-defense team at least once in his career. Of course, one would be wrong. All you need is scrappiness and a green and white mouthguard.
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Old 06-15-2008, 08:10 PM   #12579
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

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One might think an elite defender would have made an all-defense team at least once in his career. Of course, one would be wrong. All you need is scrappiness and a green and white mouthguard.
I guess Kersey isn't an elite defender either then?
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Old 06-15-2008, 08:11 PM   #12580
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

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I guess Kersey isn't an elite defender either then?
I don't think anyone ever claimed he was.
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Old 06-15-2008, 08:11 PM   #12581
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

He doesn't have to be elite to be better than Posey.
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Old 06-15-2008, 08:14 PM   #12582
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

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I do like how your understanding of NBA offense basically is that any time a wing player doesn't have the ball in their hands, the only effective thing they can do is spot up for a 3.
This. Because off the ball player movement is useless, just ask Reggie Miller, Rip Hamitlon, Ced Ceballos, Antawn Jamison, Shawn Marion...
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Old 06-15-2008, 08:16 PM   #12583
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

Ok I guess we have slightly different versions of what elite means.
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Old 06-15-2008, 08:17 PM   #12584
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

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This. Because off the ball player movement is useless, just ask Reggie Miller, Rip Hamitlon, Ced Ceballos, Antawn Jamison, Shawn Marion...
Yes and all these players can shoot which is why they are effective off the ball movement. Anyway i'm going to get ready for the Celtics game so I will respond to ur comments later.
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Old 06-15-2008, 08:17 PM   #12585
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

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Ok I guess we have slightly different versions of what elite means.
In Lake Wobegone, all the children grow up to be elite defenders.
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Old 06-15-2008, 08:18 PM   #12586
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

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Yes and all these players can shoot which is why they are effective off the ball movement. Anyway i'm going to get ready for the Celtics game so I will respond to ur comments later.
Yeah, Marion and Ceballos really knock down shooters.
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Old 06-15-2008, 08:19 PM   #12587
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

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In Lake Wobegone, all the children grow up to be elite defenders.
Oh please u are acting like I am calling everyone elite when in reality we only disagree on one or two players that I called elite, anyway i'm out go celtics.
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Old 06-15-2008, 08:20 PM   #12588
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

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Yeah, Marion and Ceballos really knock down shooters.
Not knock down shooters but they can hit jump shots
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Old 06-15-2008, 08:20 PM   #12589
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

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Yes and all these players can shoot which is why they are effective off the ball movement. Anyway i'm going to get ready for the Celtics game so I will respond to ur comments later.
And they are effective with defenses not leaving them open, imagine how good of a shooter they would be if they just stood at the three point line waiting for open 3's because the defense is helping off of them.

And another point that is important is that teams will be more wary of helping off of these "scorers," which will open things up for offenses and allow for more 1-1's for the teams best players.
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Old 06-15-2008, 08:24 PM   #12590
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

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Oh please u are acting like I am calling everyone elite when in reality we only disagree on one or two players that I called elite, anyway i'm out go celtics.


you've been throwing around 'elite' with more ferocity than anybody else in this thread. all of your players are either "elite" at something, or "ridiculously good" at something. some are "ridiculously elite" at other things.

somewhat related, i think you said something like there are only 2 elite PG defenders, and one of them is billups
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Old 06-15-2008, 08:25 PM   #12591
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

Kidd, Payton >>> Billups with respect to D.
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Old 06-15-2008, 08:25 PM   #12592
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

i dont really remember/know how the league works, but from a pure player perspective i thought mash and g.rob should have gone much earlier. mash was a sick passer for a fat guy, i think 4 or 5 dimes a game. he had so much upper body strength ala paul pierce that he looked out of shape and you would never have expected him to be so athletic/creative. i dont remember glen rob being a locker room cancer.
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Old 06-15-2008, 08:27 PM   #12593
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

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you've been throwing around 'elite' with more ferocity than anybody else in this thread. all of your players are either "elite" at something, or "ridiculously good" at something. some are "ridiculously elite" at other things.

somewhat related, i think you said something like there are only 2 elite PG defenders, and one of them is billups
Aite I really have to go lol so this is my last response.

Please stop putting words into my mouth/twisting what I said, I said Billups was the only other PG who was elite at BOTH defense and 3pt shooting (the other being stockton), not that he was the 2nd best PG defender lol.
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Old 06-15-2008, 08:35 PM   #12594
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

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Aite I really have to go lol so this is my last response.

Please stop putting words into my mouth/twisting what I said, I said Billups was the only other PG who was elite at BOTH defense and 3pt shooting (the other being stockton), not that he was the 2nd best PG defender lol.
apologies, you're right. i remembered your statement wrong. for clarification, here it is:

"There only 2 PG's in this entire draft who can shoot lights out and play elite defense, yes only 2 where at sg/sf there are probably 40-50, and they are John Stockton and Chancey Billups."

although on a side note, lol at there being 40-50 SG/SF who can shoot lights out and play elite defense.
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Old 06-15-2008, 08:45 PM   #12595
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

Interesting thing I just realized with Billups is that at the age we're getting these players at, he was pretty bad up to that point and showed zero signs of becoming the player he eventually became.
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Old 06-15-2008, 09:01 PM   #12596
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

Ugh. This argument is exasperating.

I don't think guys like Bowen or Bell are elite shooters at all. In some years they may put up a great percentage, sure. But 3p% or TS% are not the be all, end all of what is a good shooter. The best shooters can make shots not just off the catch, but also off screens, off the dribble, and falling away. Bowen, Bell and Battier get tons of wide open looks. If you took those guys and put them in shooting contests against "non-elite" shooters like Arenas or Paul Pierce, my money is on the latter pair every time. Those guys are all good to excellent role players, and their ability to hit open 3's makes them a nice kickout option on offense in addition to their very good defense. But that doesn't mean they are elite shooters or close to it. They shoot a high percentage because they are always so open.

The elite shooters in the NBA are Ray Allen & Michael Redd, maybe Nash & Others. Peja and [undrafted player] are a little past peak, but still excellent shooters. That should be enough names, but I'm sure there are more before the trio we are talking about.

Last edited by Jon34; 06-15-2008 at 09:10 PM.
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Old 06-15-2008, 09:06 PM   #12597
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

Jon, edit the last name plz.
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Old 06-15-2008, 09:10 PM   #12598
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

How can you possibly comment on Kersey's off-the-ball offense if you never saw him play??

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lol Posey is good enough to start, and looks like he is def a much better off the ball offensive player (much better shooter).

PER underrates spotup shooters like Battier/Posey/Bell etc.
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Old 06-15-2008, 09:10 PM   #12599
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

Sorry my bad.
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Old 06-15-2008, 09:20 PM   #12600
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

Putting Posey in this group is a complete joke.

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I don't think there is a specific # of elite defenders, however i'd call these defenders "elite" in no order:

Bowen
Bell
Battier
Prince
Posey
Kobe (if he doesn't have to shoulder the offensive load a ton)
Pierce (same as Kobe)

I could be missing a few as I did it very quickly.
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