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Old 06-15-2008, 07:16 PM   #12551
ClarkNasty
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

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SE could use a survivor contest imo
I think Vyse won the one that tuq had going on without anyone knowing.
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Old 06-15-2008, 07:16 PM   #12552
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

Im a little confused exactly what this argument is all about, is it in relation to one specific pick/team? Can someone summarize it for me?

D
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Old 06-15-2008, 07:18 PM   #12553
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

James Posey and all above-average defenders who are also offensively inept players other than being able to shoot 3pters at a 38% clip or so >>>> Carmelo, Josh Smith and most certainly Jerome Kersey.
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Old 06-15-2008, 07:19 PM   #12554
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

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Im a little confused exactly what this argument is all about, is it in relation to one specific pick/team? Can someone summarize it for me?

D
Me, Tbach, Seadood etc where saying very good elite/wing defenders who were very good/elite shooters were more valueable at this point in the draft (provided u already had 3-4 stars like you should) than someone like Ben Gordon (a very good/elite shooter who can create his own shot but plays bad defense)
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Old 06-15-2008, 07:19 PM   #12555
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

Elite lol
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Old 06-15-2008, 07:20 PM   #12556
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

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Elite lol
Elite = top 45% according to Epip
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Old 06-15-2008, 07:22 PM   #12557
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

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Elite = top 45% according to Epip
uh no. You are saying Bowen/Bell/Battier aren't elite defenders?
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Old 06-15-2008, 07:23 PM   #12558
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

I'm pretty sure everyone in the NBA is elite. That's why they're there amirite?
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Old 06-15-2008, 07:23 PM   #12559
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

The main point that totally wins this debate is that role players exist and are important in the NBA because there isn't enough great players in the NBA, so specialists have decent value.

The more talent there is in the pool, the less valuable a guy like Posey is. Some people have it backwards and think that these players gain value in this format, when its just not the case.
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Old 06-15-2008, 07:24 PM   #12560
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

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uh no. You are saying Bowen/Bell/Battier aren't elite defenders?
They aren't elite shooters. Posey is neither.

They are good-very good shooters whos numbers are increased because defenses play off of them.
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Old 06-15-2008, 07:27 PM   #12561
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

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Originally Posted by Franchise 60 View Post
The main point that totally wins this debate is that role players exist and are important in the NBA because there isn't enough great players in the NBA, so specialists have decent value.

The more talent there is in the pool, the less valuable a guy like Posey is. Some people have it backwards and think that these players gain value in this format, when its just not the case.
uh no, you need elite defenders/shooters who can play off the ball. Obv it helps if they are stars/can create their own shot.

The main point that should win the debate is on a team full of stars who all need the ball in their hands to be effective, the ones who don't have the ball (there is only one basketball in the NBA) are much less effective than they normally would be, and less valueable.
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Old 06-15-2008, 07:28 PM   #12562
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

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They aren't elite shooters. Posey is neither.

They are good-very good shooters whos numbers are increased because defenses play off of them.
Ok I don't think they are elite shooters either (except possibly Bell/Battier although I wouldn't call them elite), I think they are very good shooters though and are elite defenders.
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Old 06-15-2008, 07:29 PM   #12563
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

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uh no. You are saying Bowen/Bell/Battier aren't elite defenders?
I'd love to see you force rank the top 6 SG/SF ("wing") defenders in the league. That's 3 at each position, which is top 10%, which is a slightly generous definition of "elite".
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Old 06-15-2008, 07:30 PM   #12564
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

Shane's pretty much an elite shooter, and he's the best of that trio. Bell is an elite shooter as well. Bowen is not.
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Old 06-15-2008, 07:30 PM   #12565
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

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Originally Posted by Franchise 60 View Post
The main point that totally wins this debate is that role players exist and are important in the NBA because there isn't enough great players in the NBA, so specialists have decent value.

The more talent there is in the pool, the less valuable a guy like Posey is. Some people have it backwards and think that these players gain value in this format, when its just not the case.
This.
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Old 06-15-2008, 07:32 PM   #12566
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

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The main point that should win the debate is on a team full of stars who all need the ball in their hands to be effective
you keep saying this but there ain't a whole lot to back it up. Just because they have the ball a lot in the NBA (due to talent distribution) doesn't mean they suck if they don't have it. Like Joe Johnson. He was awesome as a 3rd option in PHX, then excelled as a 1st in ATL.
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Old 06-15-2008, 07:33 PM   #12567
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

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Shane's pretty much an elite shooter, and he's the best of that trio. Bell is an elite shooter as well. Bowen is not.
+1, ESP for raja. Career 41% 3pt% is elite in my book.
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Old 06-15-2008, 07:34 PM   #12568
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

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Originally Posted by ClarkNasty View Post
I'd love to see you force rank the top 6 SG/SF ("wing") defenders in the league. That's 3 at each position, which is top 10%, which is a slightly generous definition of "elite".
I don't think there is a specific # of elite defenders, however i'd call these defenders "elite" in no order:

Bowen
Bell
Battier
Prince
Posey
Kobe (if he doesn't have to shoulder the offensive load a ton)
Pierce (same as Kobe)

I could be missing a few as I did it very quickly.
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Old 06-15-2008, 07:35 PM   #12569
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

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you keep saying this but there ain't a whole lot to back it up. Just because they have the ball a lot in the NBA (due to talent distribution) doesn't mean they suck if they don't have it. Like Joe Johnson. He was awesome as a 3rd option in PHX, then excelled as a 1st in ATL.
Yes because he is an excellent 3pt shooter. Excellent 3pt shooters who are stars will be great off the ball as well.

It's players who aren't great 3pt shooters or midrange shooters (this is at the guard/sf position of course, at center its very different) will almost always not be great off the ball players
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Old 06-15-2008, 07:46 PM   #12570
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

I do like how your understanding of NBA offense basically is that any time a wing player doesn't have the ball in their hands, the only effective thing they can do is spot up for a 3.
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Old 06-15-2008, 07:48 PM   #12571
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

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I do like how your understanding of NBA offense basically is that any time a wing player doesn't have the ball in their hands, the only effective thing they can do is spot up for a 3.
I didn't say the only thing, but it's by far the most effective/best thing. The only other thing they can do is cut to the hoop but if there are a ton of guys cutting/in the paint area or around it already it gets way too clogged.

What else can someone do without the ball besides spotting up for a shot or cutting to the hoop? I'm curious.
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Old 06-15-2008, 07:48 PM   #12572
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

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They aren't elite shooters. Posey is neither.

They are good-very good shooters whos numbers are increased because defenses play off of them.
+1

These star players would shoot much higher %s if they just spotted up and shot open shots.
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Old 06-15-2008, 07:51 PM   #12573
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

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I do like how your understanding of NBA offense basically is that any time a wing player doesn't have the ball in their hands, the only effective thing they can do is spot up for a 3.
I see what you're driving at w/ Epip, but in his defense, in todays game, spotting up for a 3 is probably the most frequent and often best thing to do.

D
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Old 06-15-2008, 07:51 PM   #12574
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

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I didn't say the only thing, but it's by far the most effective/best thing. The only other thing they can do is cut to the hoop but if there are a ton of guys cutting/in the paint area or around it already it gets way too clogged.

What else can someone do without the ball besides spotting up for a shot or cutting to the hoop? I'm curious.
If a guy like Wade/Ellis is left open, he is very tough to stop when the pass goes to him and then he drives. Players who are elite at driving to the hoop are tough enough to stop when the defense is set up when they begin their drive. I think you continue to fail to understand this point.
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Old 06-15-2008, 07:51 PM   #12575
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

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+1

These star players would shoot much higher %s if they just spotted up and shot open shots.
jesus yes. go to an NBA game and watch them warm up. role players are expected to shoot well because their game shots are essentially the same as warmup shots (minus fatigue factors). the open 3 that kobe had in the last game was probably the most open he's been in years, whereas battier/bowen/etc see this **** every game.
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