Post of the thread.

Yet somehow they never lost to Puerto Rico

Do you think they couldn't beat the Argentian team that has won WC the last couple of years or even the American team the last couple of times? That team was sick nasty.

Of course but that's because their top 5-6 stars were better than our current top 5-6 stars on the American team. Our 2nd best player on that team was Allen Iverson if I recall correctly, I mean seriously guys.

The solution is more bad players!

Since sethypoo has disapeared from this thread, Clark and all you other guys arguing against me, I will ask you the same question:

For a role player who plays off the ball and plays the SG/SF position, what are the 2 most important qualities for them to have?

So a team of:

CP3
KB
LBJ
KG
DH

vs

CP3
Bowen
LBJ
KG
DH

You take the 2nd?

Is it preferable to have a one dimensional role player, or a complete, better player. You are posing a false choice.

No because Kobe is an elite defender/3pt shooter (hes 3pt shooting percentage would be a lot higher if he didn't take so many tough shots which he won't have to on an elite team like that)

Sub in Ben Gordon inplace of Kobe and I take Bowen's team any day.

Regarding the Posey vs Kersey debate:

Kersey was a better defender, better rebounder, better passer and better at creating his own shot.

The big knock on Kersey seems to be that he wasn't a great 3 pt shooter and that his career TS% is low. Obviously I'll concede the 3 pt shooting because that just wasn't the way his offense worked, but he also rarely took any so its not like you're getting a chucker or anything. The TS% was not always as you see it though, and is heavily weighed down by his later seasons. Early in his career Kersey was actually an incredibly effective scorer. In his age 23-25 seasons he had TS% of .589, .565, and .542., and he was over .500 every year until age 29, which is pretty good for a guy who wasn't a spectacular free throw shooter. The guy is my 6th man, and I already have two of the best pure shooters of all time on my team, and a very efficient scoring PF. To sum it all up, I'm pretty happy taking a guy who is better in every aspect of the game than Posey except shooting 3s (which Posey wasn't even a good 3 pt shooter early in his career) and free throws, and Posey happens to be just awful at scoring otherwise.

I haven't posted in 9 minutes and I've "disappeared?"

To answer your question, why do you need to run an offense where you're 4th best player plays off the ball? Answer because he can't do anything with it. All other things being equal, wouldn't you prefer that he could?

Depends what that one dimension is, I don't consider Bowen/Battier/Bell etc. one dimensional since they are both elite defenders and very good/elite shooters.

And for complete obv that would include very good defense and very good shooting, which isn't someone like Kersey.

obv i'd perfer he could, but i'd perfer my 4th-5th best offensive player to be able to hit open 3's and defend a lot more than being able to create his own shot and it's not close.

I've just realized what Epip's problem is. He grew up only seeing post-expansion NBA when very few teams have had more than 2 or 3 guys who could do more than shoot open J's on offense, so all he's seen is team that run the same iso/pick and roll sets over and over again because otherwise they ended up with James Posey trying to create one on one.

There was a time when the fifth best player on a good team was competent to make plays with the ball in his hands...

Ya sorry i'd much rather have my stars creating shots than someone like Ben Gordon/Kersey but that's just me

Sethypooh,

Forget it man, don't you recall how the Trailblazer offense ground to a halt due to Kersey's ineptitude?

Still, you see what he's saying. Bowen gets doubled off more consistantly bc teams can play that weird NBA zone and (sometimes) still contest the corner 3. Parker will burn anyone trying to close out on his jump shot, but Bowen will just pass if its not a wide open look. That gives the defense more of a chance to re-establish good position than having to collapse on Parker. Finley also takes more semi-contested 3's than Bowen, so doubling off Finley is more dangerous.

Bowen is just much much better on defense than offense. A team full of Bruce Bowens couldn't beat anyone IMO, unless they managed to injure the opposing roster bad enough.

Also, 5 Carmelo >>> 5 Battier IMO. Is Battier really a good enough penitrator to get Carmelo's defense to collapse and trigger some real offense? Because Melo is getting his off the dribble and finding Melo around the hoop and Melo on the wing all day against a team full of Battiers. Battier will still slow him down, but I think that (Melo's offense - Battier's defense) >>> (Battier's offense - Melo's defense).

this discussion is so tilting. the general misunderstanding of basketball dynamics makes me want to rip my eyes out

Because the defense is always going to let the ball go exactly where you want it to.

Wow you really didn't get what I was saying, of course a team full of only Bowen/Battiers wouldn't beat anyone, they need shot creators.

That's why a team of BOTH stars and players like Bowen/Battiers is the most ideal.

You of course need ur stars (infact they are the most important) and that's why these players should have been taken in the first 3-4 rounds, but you also need your spotup shooters who can also defend.

Thats why it goes a team of 3-4 stars and say 8 Battiers/Bowens > A team full of 11-12 Carmelos > A team full of 11-12 Battiers/Bowens

You're out of your element here man. You never saw Kersey play. Kersey was an outstanding defender and a pretty decent offensive player. Your only knock on him since you never saw him play is his low career TS%, which for one is weighed down by some poor late years, and also is weighed down by the fact that he was not good at FTs and didn't shoot 3s. Elgin Baylor's career TS% was .494, I'm assuming you'd tell me he was a bad offensive player also.

Of course not, that's why when you double team a star like Kobe/MJ etc. they can kick it out to Posey and he can shoot wide open 3's all day.

If you double team Kobe/MJ and they kick it out to Kersey, the defense will dare him to shoot a 3, and will usually be able to recover in time to stop his penetrating.

Ok I knew Kersey was a great defender, I meant he wasn't a great or even good shooter.

Wat?

Seriously, wat?

Here's an interesting concept for you. You don't have to be a good or great 3 pt shooter as a wing to be good at offense. Also, please with regards to your thoughts on elgin baylor.