Two Plus Two Publishing LLC Two Plus Two Publishing LLC
 

Go Back   Two Plus Two Poker Forums > >

Sporting Events Discussion centered around sporting events.

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 06-15-2008, 06:14 PM   #12501
ClarkNasty
Carpal \'Tunnel
 
ClarkNasty's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: 10x the man Clarkmeister is
Posts: 35,385
Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

Quote:
Originally Posted by sethypooh21 View Post
It is a well known fact that the better some players on your team are, the worse you want other players to be.
Post of the thread.
ClarkNasty is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-15-2008, 06:15 PM   #12502
ClarkNasty
Carpal \'Tunnel
 
ClarkNasty's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: 10x the man Clarkmeister is
Posts: 35,385
Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

Quote:
Originally Posted by EPiPeN11 View Post
They also had a lot of stars who were elite defenders as well and played some of the worst basketball teams ever.
Yet somehow they never lost to Puerto Rico
ClarkNasty is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-15-2008, 06:15 PM   #12503
capone0
Carpal \'Tunnel
 
capone0's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: Philly
Posts: 43,034
Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

Quote:
Originally Posted by EPiPeN11 View Post
They also had a lot of stars who were elite defenders as well and played some of the worst basketball teams ever.
Do you think they couldn't beat the Argentian team that has won WC the last couple of years or even the American team the last couple of times? That team was sick nasty.
capone0 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-15-2008, 06:17 PM   #12504
EPiPeN11
banned
 
EPiPeN11's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: akon is the goat
Posts: 18,605
Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

Quote:
Originally Posted by capone0 View Post
Do you think they couldn't beat the Argentian team that has won WC the last couple of years or even the American team the last couple of times? That team was sick nasty.
Of course but that's because their top 5-6 stars were better than our current top 5-6 stars on the American team. Our 2nd best player on that team was Allen Iverson if I recall correctly, I mean seriously guys.
EPiPeN11 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-15-2008, 06:19 PM   #12505
ClarkNasty
Carpal \'Tunnel
 
ClarkNasty's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: 10x the man Clarkmeister is
Posts: 35,385
Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

The solution is more bad players!
ClarkNasty is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-15-2008, 06:20 PM   #12506
EPiPeN11
banned
 
EPiPeN11's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: akon is the goat
Posts: 18,605
Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

Since sethypoo has disapeared from this thread, Clark and all you other guys arguing against me, I will ask you the same question:

For a role player who plays off the ball and plays the SG/SF position, what are the 2 most important qualities for them to have?
EPiPeN11 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-15-2008, 06:21 PM   #12507
capone0
Carpal \'Tunnel
 
capone0's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: Philly
Posts: 43,034
Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

So a team of:

CP3
KB
LBJ
KG
DH

vs

CP3
Bowen
LBJ
KG
DH

You take the 2nd?
capone0 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-15-2008, 06:21 PM   #12508
ClarkNasty
Carpal \'Tunnel
 
ClarkNasty's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: 10x the man Clarkmeister is
Posts: 35,385
Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

Quote:
For a role player who plays off the ball and plays the SG/SF position, what are the 2 most important qualities for them to have?
Is it preferable to have a one dimensional role player, or a complete, better player. You are posing a false choice.
ClarkNasty is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-15-2008, 06:22 PM   #12509
EPiPeN11
banned
 
EPiPeN11's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: akon is the goat
Posts: 18,605
Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

Quote:
Originally Posted by capone0 View Post
So a team of:

CP3
KB
LBJ
KG
DH

vs

CP3
Bowen
LBJ
KG
DH

You take the 2nd?

No because Kobe is an elite defender/3pt shooter (hes 3pt shooting percentage would be a lot higher if he didn't take so many tough shots which he won't have to on an elite team like that)

Sub in Ben Gordon inplace of Kobe and I take Bowen's team any day.
EPiPeN11 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-15-2008, 06:23 PM   #12510
MEb
Carpal \'Tunnel
 
MEb's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2004
Posts: 24,705
Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

Regarding the Posey vs Kersey debate:

Kersey was a better defender, better rebounder, better passer and better at creating his own shot.

The big knock on Kersey seems to be that he wasn't a great 3 pt shooter and that his career TS% is low. Obviously I'll concede the 3 pt shooting because that just wasn't the way his offense worked, but he also rarely took any so its not like you're getting a chucker or anything. The TS% was not always as you see it though, and is heavily weighed down by his later seasons. Early in his career Kersey was actually an incredibly effective scorer. In his age 23-25 seasons he had TS% of .589, .565, and .542., and he was over .500 every year until age 29, which is pretty good for a guy who wasn't a spectacular free throw shooter. The guy is my 6th man, and I already have two of the best pure shooters of all time on my team, and a very efficient scoring PF. To sum it all up, I'm pretty happy taking a guy who is better in every aspect of the game than Posey except shooting 3s (which Posey wasn't even a good 3 pt shooter early in his career) and free throws, and Posey happens to be just awful at scoring otherwise.
MEb is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-15-2008, 06:23 PM   #12511
sethypooh21
Make or Miss League
 
sethypooh21's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: Nylon Calculus etc.
Posts: 47,038
Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

I haven't posted in 9 minutes and I've "disappeared?"

To answer your question, why do you need to run an offense where you're 4th best player plays off the ball? Answer because he can't do anything with it. All other things being equal, wouldn't you prefer that he could?
sethypooh21 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-15-2008, 06:24 PM   #12512
EPiPeN11
banned
 
EPiPeN11's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: akon is the goat
Posts: 18,605
Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

Quote:
Originally Posted by ClarkNasty View Post
Is it preferable to have a one dimensional role player, or a complete, better player.
Depends what that one dimension is, I don't consider Bowen/Battier/Bell etc. one dimensional since they are both elite defenders and very good/elite shooters.

And for complete obv that would include very good defense and very good shooting, which isn't someone like Kersey.
EPiPeN11 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-15-2008, 06:27 PM   #12513
EPiPeN11
banned
 
EPiPeN11's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: akon is the goat
Posts: 18,605
Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

Quote:
Originally Posted by sethypooh21 View Post
I haven't posted in 9 minutes and I've "disappeared?"

To answer your question, why do you need to run an offense where you're 4th best player plays off the ball? Answer because he can't do anything with it. All other things being equal, wouldn't you prefer that he could?
obv i'd perfer he could, but i'd perfer my 4th-5th best offensive player to be able to hit open 3's and defend a lot more than being able to create his own shot and it's not close.
EPiPeN11 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-15-2008, 06:28 PM   #12514
sethypooh21
Make or Miss League
 
sethypooh21's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: Nylon Calculus etc.
Posts: 47,038
Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

I've just realized what Epip's problem is. He grew up only seeing post-expansion NBA when very few teams have had more than 2 or 3 guys who could do more than shoot open J's on offense, so all he's seen is team that run the same iso/pick and roll sets over and over again because otherwise they ended up with James Posey trying to create one on one.

There was a time when the fifth best player on a good team was competent to make plays with the ball in his hands...
sethypooh21 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-15-2008, 06:30 PM   #12515
EPiPeN11
banned
 
EPiPeN11's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: akon is the goat
Posts: 18,605
Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

Quote:
Originally Posted by sethypooh21 View Post
I've just realized what Epip's problem is. He grew up only seeing post-expansion NBA when very few teams have had more than 2 or 3 guys who could do more than shoot open J's on offense, so all he's seen is team that run the same iso/pick and roll sets over and over again because otherwise they ended up with James Posey trying to create one on one.

There was a time when the fifth best player on a good team was competent to make plays with the ball in his hands...
Ya sorry i'd much rather have my stars creating shots than someone like Ben Gordon/Kersey but that's just me
EPiPeN11 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-15-2008, 06:30 PM   #12516
ClarkNasty
Carpal \'Tunnel
 
ClarkNasty's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: 10x the man Clarkmeister is
Posts: 35,385
Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

Sethypooh,

Forget it man, don't you recall how the Trailblazer offense ground to a halt due to Kersey's ineptitude?
ClarkNasty is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-15-2008, 06:34 PM   #12517
cowboy2579
adept
 
cowboy2579's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: 2+2 obv
Posts: 1,104
Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

Quote:
Originally Posted by EPiPeN11 View Post
Teams double off Tony Parker/Finley too...
Still, you see what he's saying. Bowen gets doubled off more consistantly bc teams can play that weird NBA zone and (sometimes) still contest the corner 3. Parker will burn anyone trying to close out on his jump shot, but Bowen will just pass if its not a wide open look. That gives the defense more of a chance to re-establish good position than having to collapse on Parker. Finley also takes more semi-contested 3's than Bowen, so doubling off Finley is more dangerous.

Bowen is just much much better on defense than offense. A team full of Bruce Bowens couldn't beat anyone IMO, unless they managed to injure the opposing roster bad enough.

Also, 5 Carmelo >>> 5 Battier IMO. Is Battier really a good enough penitrator to get Carmelo's defense to collapse and trigger some real offense? Because Melo is getting his off the dribble and finding Melo around the hoop and Melo on the wing all day against a team full of Battiers. Battier will still slow him down, but I think that (Melo's offense - Battier's defense) >>> (Battier's offense - Melo's defense).
cowboy2579 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-15-2008, 06:35 PM   #12518
KLJ
20k hands/day
 
KLJ's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: Topeka
Posts: 5,701
Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

this discussion is so tilting. the general misunderstanding of basketball dynamics makes me want to rip my eyes out
KLJ is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-15-2008, 06:35 PM   #12519
sethypooh21
Make or Miss League
 
sethypooh21's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: Nylon Calculus etc.
Posts: 47,038
Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

Quote:
Originally Posted by EPiPeN11 View Post
Ya sorry i'd much rather have my stars creating shots than someone like Ben Gordon/Kersey but that's just me
Because the defense is always going to let the ball go exactly where you want it to.
sethypooh21 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-15-2008, 06:37 PM   #12520
EPiPeN11
banned
 
EPiPeN11's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: akon is the goat
Posts: 18,605
Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

Quote:
Originally Posted by cowboy2579 View Post
Still, you see what he's saying. Bowen gets doubled off more consistantly bc teams can play that weird NBA zone and (sometimes) still contest the corner 3. Parker will burn anyone trying to close out on his jump shot, but Bowen will just pass if its not a wide open look. That gives the defense more of a chance to re-establish good position than having to collapse on Parker. Finley also takes more semi-contested 3's than Bowen, so doubling off Finley is more dangerous.

Bowen is just much much better on defense than offense. A team full of Bruce Bowens couldn't beat anyone IMO, unless they managed to injure the opposing roster bad enough.

Also, 5 Carmelo >>> 5 Battier IMO. Is Battier really a good enough penitrator to get Carmelo's defense to collapse and trigger some real offense? Because Melo is getting his off the dribble and finding Melo around the hoop and on the wing all day against a team full of Battiers. Battier will still slow him down, but I think that (Melo's offense - Battier's defense) >>> (Battier's offense - Melo's defense).
Wow you really didn't get what I was saying, of course a team full of only Bowen/Battiers wouldn't beat anyone, they need shot creators.

That's why a team of BOTH stars and players like Bowen/Battiers is the most ideal.

You of course need ur stars (infact they are the most important) and that's why these players should have been taken in the first 3-4 rounds, but you also need your spotup shooters who can also defend.

Thats why it goes a team of 3-4 stars and say 8 Battiers/Bowens > A team full of 11-12 Carmelos > A team full of 11-12 Battiers/Bowens
EPiPeN11 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-15-2008, 06:37 PM   #12521
MEb
Carpal \'Tunnel
 
MEb's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2004
Posts: 24,705
Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

Quote:
Originally Posted by EPiPeN11 View Post

And for complete obv that would include very good defense and very good shooting, which isn't someone like Kersey.
You're out of your element here man. You never saw Kersey play. Kersey was an outstanding defender and a pretty decent offensive player. Your only knock on him since you never saw him play is his low career TS%, which for one is weighed down by some poor late years, and also is weighed down by the fact that he was not good at FTs and didn't shoot 3s. Elgin Baylor's career TS% was .494, I'm assuming you'd tell me he was a bad offensive player also.
MEb is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-15-2008, 06:38 PM   #12522
EPiPeN11
banned
 
EPiPeN11's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: akon is the goat
Posts: 18,605
Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

Quote:
Originally Posted by sethypooh21 View Post
Because the defense is always going to let the ball go exactly where you want it to.
Of course not, that's why when you double team a star like Kobe/MJ etc. they can kick it out to Posey and he can shoot wide open 3's all day.

If you double team Kobe/MJ and they kick it out to Kersey, the defense will dare him to shoot a 3, and will usually be able to recover in time to stop his penetrating.
EPiPeN11 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-15-2008, 06:38 PM   #12523
EPiPeN11
banned
 
EPiPeN11's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: akon is the goat
Posts: 18,605
Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

Quote:
Originally Posted by MEbenhoe View Post
You're out of your element here man. You never saw Kersey play. Kersey was an outstanding defender and a pretty decent offensive player. Your only knock on him since you never saw him play is his low career TS%, which for one is weighed down by some poor late years, and also is weighed down by the fact that he was not good at FTs and didn't shoot 3s. Elgin Baylor's career TS% was .494, I'm assuming you'd tell me he was a bad offensive player also.
Ok I knew Kersey was a great defender, I meant he wasn't a great or even good shooter.
EPiPeN11 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-15-2008, 06:39 PM   #12524
sethypooh21
Make or Miss League
 
sethypooh21's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: Nylon Calculus etc.
Posts: 47,038
Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

Quote:
Originally Posted by EPiPeN11 View Post
Thats why it goes a team of 3-4 stars and say 8 Battiers/Bowens > A team full of 11-12 Carmelos > A team full of 11-12 Battiers/Bowens
Wat?

Seriously, wat?
sethypooh21 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-15-2008, 06:41 PM   #12525
MEb
Carpal \'Tunnel
 
MEb's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2004
Posts: 24,705
Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

Quote:
Originally Posted by EPiPeN11 View Post
Ok I knew Kersey was a great defender, I meant he wasn't a great or even good shooter.
Here's an interesting concept for you. You don't have to be a good or great 3 pt shooter as a wing to be good at offense. Also, please with regards to your thoughts on elgin baylor.
MEb is offline   Reply With Quote

Reply
      

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off


Forum Jump


All times are GMT -4. The time now is 09:23 PM.


Powered by vBulletin®
Copyright ©2000 - 2021, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Copyright © 2008-2020, Two Plus Two Interactive