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Old 06-15-2008, 05:09 PM   #12451
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

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Originally Posted by Franchise 60 View Post
I am just surprised to see the "lol do you guys even watch the games" anti stat guy argue player A is better than player B when he hasn't seen player B play.
Yeah that was reffering to watching how basketball is played not actually watching a player from the 80's-90's.
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Old 06-15-2008, 05:10 PM   #12452
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

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its funny that one innocent "comparing shooters to creators is like apples to oranges" comment sparked a 2 pg debate.

my point regarding this, and TS% was that you cant compare shooters to creators easily because shooters would be largely ineffective without creators, whereas creators are roughly the same regardless of the presence of shooters. therefore, some teams need to bite the bullet and pick Stackhouse (or even Antoine) in order to help the other dependent players on the team score.

hence, the 5 carmelos vs the 5 battiers argument that followed
I partially agree with this. I think you need creators, but you don't need creators that don't pass and put up bad shots. There are still undrafted guys out there who did that more efficiently than many that have been drafted recently.

Also, most of these "non-creators" players at some point in their career, usually college, were good at manufacturing their shot. I have no doubt that many could average Stackhouse like numbers with the same level of efficiency. Many of them shoot less because they realize that it's not good for their team when there are better options.

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Old 06-15-2008, 05:13 PM   #12453
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

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It doesn't underrate them relative to other players when the other player is a superior defender.

And no, he's not good enough to start, not really. Miami wasn't hella deep, Memphis needed all the help they could get and in neither case did he get more than 30mpg. Boston was one of only a few teams even interested in him this offseason for not even the midlevel.

He is what he is, which is a very nice bench player who was taken way too high in this draft. Since he was taken over a round ago, only a handful of players that have been picked were worse players than him. This whole discussion is 100% based on Boston homers overrating a guy who they saw on TV yesterday and is fresh in their memory.
It underrates players who just spot up and shoot and don't create their own offense because these players are very valueable as well. You need both shot creators/players who can hit open shots (preferably 3's). Now if you want to run ur offense through Kersey that's fine good luck with that you will get crushed in this league, but if you don't, Kersey will be playing off the ball and it looks like he wasn't a good shooter (correct me if I'm wrong).

And Posey is def good enough to start on most teams. I'm pretty sure Posey got a higher offer from somewhere else (heard this on tv a few times) but picked Boston cause they would compete for a championship.

Also i'm very curious why u included PER but failed to mention TS% as Posey has a career TS% of .543 and Kersey has a career TS% of .508
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Old 06-15-2008, 05:14 PM   #12454
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

From what I saw, Kersey was a better defender than Posey, but JP is a much better offensive player. Generally he was regarded as their defensive stopper, and being on a great team I would have guessed that he had multiple all defense nods.

But Posey>Kersey, because Kersey actually hurts most of these teams on offense. Posey is a slight help, and plays nearly as good of defense. Dang Clark really hates James.
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Old 06-15-2008, 05:16 PM   #12455
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

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But Posey>Kersey, because Kersey actually hurts most of these teams on offense. Posey is a slight help, and plays nearly as good of defense. Dang Clark really hates Posey.
Ok this is what I thought from just looking at the stats (obv I didn't see Kersey play really at all)
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Old 06-15-2008, 05:19 PM   #12456
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

Think Josh Smith, extremely athletic and energetic, but shot more than he should have...
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Old 06-15-2008, 05:21 PM   #12457
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

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Think Josh Smith, extremely athletic and energetic, but shot more than he should have...
Ok ya i'd def rather have Posey than Josh Smith mainly because of the shooting obviously.
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Old 06-15-2008, 05:22 PM   #12458
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

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Also, most of these "non-creators" players at some point in their career, usually college, were good at manufacturing their shot. I have no doubt that many could average Stackhouse like numbers with the same level of efficiency. Many of them shoot less because they realize that it's not good for their team when there are better options.
Yeah, this is a really underrated point. Just because a guy doesn't choose to "create" shots inefficiently doesn't mean he isn't capable of doing so. Many high efficiency lower usage players most likely choose to be an effective shooter than an ineffective creator. The smart players will adapt to different roles as the competition gets stiffer...guys like toine will just keep chugging along like they should be the #1 option.
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Old 06-15-2008, 05:24 PM   #12459
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

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You need both shot creators/players who can hit open shots (preferably 3's). Now if you want to run ur offense through Kersey that's fine good luck with that you will get crushed in this league
Because the only two options are "camp out and shoot 3's" or "focal point of the offense" amirite?

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But Posey>Kersey, because Kersey actually hurts most of these teams on offense. Posey is a slight help, and plays nearly as good of defense. Dang Clark really hates James.

No. Kersey was much more dynamic on offense.

And I don't hate James. It's funny how you think someones a bad pick and suddenly you must "hate" him. Posey was picked 40 spots ago and most players taken since him are better players. Do you disagree with that? Really?
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Old 06-15-2008, 05:26 PM   #12460
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

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Because the only two options are "camp out and shoot 3's" or "focal point of the offense" amirite?




No. Kersey was much more dynamic on offense.

And I don't hate James. It's funny how you think someones a bad pick and suddenly you must "hate" him. Posey was picked 40 spots ago and most players taken since him are better players. Do you disagree with that? Really?
For a SG/SF it basacally is, I mean you can cut too, but if you can't shoot it's pretty obvious ur going to cut to the basket. Plus ur bigmen will be at the basket too, you can't just have everyone near the basket or the lane gets way too clogged

And no Posey was picked where he should have been, I think Bell/Bowen/Battier/Prince all those type of players should have been taken in the 4th and 5th rounds. Bell/Bowen def should not have lasted til the 6th, and Battier/Prince def should not have been taken in the 3rd.

Also they might be better players than Posey in a vaccum, but Posey is more valueable on a team of stars than they are and it's not that close imo. We are contructing teams like the real NBA, not a yahoo fantasy league.

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Old 06-15-2008, 05:33 PM   #12461
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

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And no Posey was picked where he should have been,
Johnny Moore
Cedric Ceballos
Gerald Wallace
Kurt Thomas
Byron Scott
Danny Ainge
Doc Rivers
Kelly Tripucka
Jeff Ruland
Derrick McKey
Reggie Lewis
Christian Laettner
Nate McMillan
Kenny Smith
Joe Barry Carroll
J.R. Smith
Josh Childress
Roy Tarpley
Sleepy Floyd
Bruce Bowen
Derek Fisher
Nick Anderson
Steve Francis
Raja Bell
Jamal Mashburn
Ben Gordon
Glenn Robinson
Jerome Kersey
Antoine Walker


Which of those players do you think was a better player than Posey.
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Old 06-15-2008, 05:35 PM   #12462
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

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No. Kersey was much more dynamic on offense.
I don't give a crap how "dynamic" he is on offense. If he scores at a rate that less efficient than his other available options, then he's not going to be a good option as a whole. On a team who theoretically is filled with better options, this flaw becomes magnified. Add the fact that he's not a 3 point threat, and he's even less of a help offensively. Still I like the pick.

Quote:
And I don't hate James. It's funny how you think someones a bad pick and suddenly you must "hate" him. Posey was picked 40 spots ago and most players taken since him are better players. Do you disagree with that? Really?
The majority of players taken after him are not better, not a chance.

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Old 06-15-2008, 05:36 PM   #12463
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

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The majority players taken before him are not better, not a chance.
I assume you mean after?
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Old 06-15-2008, 05:37 PM   #12464
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

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Originally Posted by ClarkNasty View Post
Johnny Moore
Cedric Ceballos
Gerald Wallace
Kurt Thomas
Byron Scott
Danny Ainge
Doc Rivers
Kelly Tripucka
Jeff Ruland
Derrick McKey
Reggie Lewis
Christian Laettner
Nate McMillan
Kenny Smith
Joe Barry Carroll
J.R. Smith
Josh Childress
Roy Tarpley
Sleepy Floyd
Bruce Bowen
Derek Fisher
Nick Anderson
Steve Francis
Raja Bell
Jamal Mashburn
Ben Gordon
Glenn Robinson
Jerome Kersey
Antoine Walker


Which of those players do you think was a better player than Posey.
Like I said, I never said Posey was better, I said he was more valueable, and I think he is more valueable than every single SG/SF on that list except for arguably Bowen or Bell.
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Old 06-15-2008, 05:39 PM   #12465
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

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I assume you mean after?
yeah sorry.

There are at least 15 players who are better than Posey on that list, in a real-world format, but only a couple who I consider better on a team with 4 scorers like TBach's in this draft.
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Old 06-15-2008, 05:40 PM   #12466
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

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Like I said, I never said Posey was better, I said he was more valueable, and I think he is more valueable than every single SG/SF on that list except for arguably Bowen or Bell.
I have no clue how the efff someone can be "not better" but "more valuable".
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Old 06-15-2008, 05:40 PM   #12467
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

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Of course not, but Bowen's 3pt percentage means a lot more than his 2pt percentage, because even when hes NOT shooting 3's (ie. standing in the corner), he is still a factor because of his high 3pt percentage from there (ie. forcing the defense to stay with him).
You've said this about 10 times now, and I think its completely made up. Bowen's man leaves him all the time to help on Duncan/Manu/Parker. As was pointed out earlier, Bowen almost never takes contested 3s- they are all wide open 3s when HIS MAN LEFT HIM TO DOUBLE.
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Old 06-15-2008, 05:42 PM   #12468
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

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I have no clue how the efff someone can be "not better" but "more valuable".
I will cut/paste my Carmelo Anthony thing again:

Carmelo Anthony before this year. A team full of him on offense wouldn't be that good, because they all need the ball in their hands to be effective. Carmelo Anthony is the type of player i'm reffering to that needs the ball in his hands to be effective.

Once he is off the ball (doesn't have the ball in his hands) his value drops a ton because he can't shoot a 3.

Now a team with say 3 Carmelo Anthony's and 8 Shane Battiers (a very good off the ball player) would do better than a team of 11 Carmelo Anthony's. That is my whole point, there is 2 type of offense, on the ball and off the ball offense and players are better at one or another (and some are very good/great at both).


Now Carmelo is obviously "better" than Battier is, but a team of 11 Carmelo Anthony's is not better than a team of 3 Carmelo Anthony's and 8 Shane Battiers
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Old 06-15-2008, 05:42 PM   #12469
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

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I have no clue how the efff someone can be "not better" but "more valuable".
because he provides something very rare and valuable instead of something more common and valuable(at this stage in the draft, and relative to team needs in general). So if you had a team of 4 all-star level scorers you'd rather have posey on your team than ben gordon even if you think ben gordon is "better" at basketball.

James
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Old 06-15-2008, 05:44 PM   #12470
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

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You've said this about 10 times now, and I think its completely made up. Bowen's man leaves him all the time to help on Duncan/Manu/Parker. As was pointed out earlier, Bowen almost never takes contested 3s- they are all wide open 3s when HIS MAN LEFT HIM TO DOUBLE.
His man doesn't leave him all the time, yes of course his man leaves him sometimes, and Bowen makes them pay with his 3's.
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Old 06-15-2008, 05:46 PM   #12471
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

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I have no clue how the efff someone can be "not better" but "more valuable".
wow.

You are the 96 Bulls and Rodman goes down, you have to choose between taking Dikembe Mutombo or Kobe Bryant.

Guess we now who Clark's taking.

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Old 06-15-2008, 05:47 PM   #12472
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

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Ok ya i'd def rather have Posey than Josh Smith mainly because of the shooting obviously.
imo
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Old 06-15-2008, 05:49 PM   #12473
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

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because he provides something very rare and valuable instead of something more common and valuable(at this stage in the draft, and relative to team needs in general). So if you had a team of 4 all-star level scorers you'd rather have posey on your team than ben gordon even if you think ben gordon is "better" at basketball.

James
I largely think this is BS to justify picks and mimic what we see from teams in the NBA. In real life these "worse but somehow more valuable" guys are there becuase of a finite talent pool available.

No one has to argue that Dennis Rodman wasn't better than some subsequent guys, but was somehow more valuable. Rodman was simply better.
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Old 06-15-2008, 05:50 PM   #12474
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

I think Walker is an absolutely terrible pick, and to this day I still have no clue why:

1. Teams continued to let him play so many minutes and take so many shots

2. Hes a 3 time all star


One of the worst players, if not the absolute worst, player of my lifetime imo. He isn't in my top 1000 players.

Btw, after the Marbury pick, I was hoping against all hope that he'd take Walker next round....would've been so awesome.
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Old 06-15-2008, 05:50 PM   #12475
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

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imo
This isn't the N2 fantasy league Assani... oh wait u were kicked outa N2 anyway so I'll just say this isn't yahoo fantasy sports.
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