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Old 06-15-2008, 04:22 PM   #12426
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

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Originally Posted by horizon View Post
Bruce bowen shooting % does not force the defense to stay with him as the sole reaon he's shooting such a high % is because the defense left him alone in the corner.
He's a terrible offensive player.
um yes it does force the defense to stay with him because if they don't he will shoot a high percentage on 3's that's the whole point. If he was always left alone in the corner he would destroy teams.

I would much rather kick it out to Bowen for an open corner 3 than to Carmelo Anthony for a 3.
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Old 06-15-2008, 04:29 PM   #12427
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

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Originally Posted by Seadood228 View Post
They both played against backups, and both players were on the floor late in games. Even if you adjust for pace JR had better numbers. Experience plays a factor, but that's one of the few things Ben has on KR. Even so, JR has improved every season, whereas Ben Gordon's numbers went a little south last year. So yeah Ben has 4 years of similar play to JR's 2, but JR is already a better player at a younger age. He has more size, length, athleticism, and has more weapons in his arsenal. Most importantly, his career is decidedly on the upturn at 24 whereas Ben's seems to have stagnated or possibly gone down.

If this were a real draft, the player already who's better and been improving year by year would almost always go above the guy who's been consistently good. Especially when you factor that this player is bigger, faster, and more athletic.

Even if you buy into the "played against bench players" line, then that means that he also played with bench players, making his job as a scorer harder. He also played in a tougher conference against tougher competition... but I don't think any of those arguments hold water.

Although the difference is not much between jr and ben gordon. JR averaged the same type of numbers per 36 minutes as gordon on a team that was so fast paced that it makes Ben gordons averages weigh more. They are both equally bad 1 on 1 defenders doesnt matter about size JR cannot guard any solid starting 2 guard in the NBA, which is why the horribly anthony carter got the start all year long.

I give JR credit for finding the level of selfishness to find shots in a carmelo, iverson, kleisa offense. I guess playing in Denver causes you to just wanna shoot the ball anytime you touch it, besides carter and camby does anyone pass the ball on that team ? EVen kenyon martin just jacks up 20 footers anytime he touches it.
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Old 06-15-2008, 04:35 PM   #12428
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

Also don't like the Walker pick for obvious reasons (ridiculously low percentages, chucker etc)

He also guarentees u at least one dribble off his foot per game.
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Old 06-15-2008, 04:36 PM   #12429
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

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Jerome Kersey is an absurdly good pick here.
lol how can you say this, then trash the Posey pick? I think Posey is def better than Kersey but then again I didn't really see Kersey play so what am I missing?
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Old 06-15-2008, 04:39 PM   #12430
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

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um yes it does force the defense to stay with him because if they don't he will shoot a high percentage on 3's that's the whole point. If he was always left alone in the corner he would destroy teams.

I would much rather kick it out to Bowen for an open corner 3 than to Carmelo Anthony for a 3.

In a league like this, taking a guy like bowen just kills your team if his sole purpose is 1 on 1 defense.

The teams in this league are so good that even if you give credit to bowen for shutting down the best wing player on a team, so what there are 4 other good scoring options usually out on the floor so he wont do much for the team defense as whole.

Compared with defensive players like Olajuwon or mourning, who will be helping out the whole team defense by stopping or altering a lot of shots in the painted area taking away a whole aspect of a teams offense.

Will bowen be altering any perimiter shots taken by any player ? Wing defenders are vastly overated and only as good as their interior help defense.

I would give the most credit to Raja bell out of that group of defenders ( bell, bowen, posey, battier ) Bell is the only one to be a great wing defender with almost no help from team defense. All the others have had at one time or a nother great team defense around them.
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Old 06-15-2008, 04:40 PM   #12431
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

In Dudd's defense, you don't have to completely understand how win shares are calculated to lend credibility to the stat.

You can sum a players importance by the following three criteria, and the stats that back this up:

1) The ability to score, or help your team score the most points on each possession.

2) The ability to create possessions for your team.

3) The ability to make your opponents make your opponents less efficient in their possessions.

Tione was average at 2&3, and absolutely deplorable at number one. I know the Boston homers love him, but he sucks as a player, especially in this format. Theoretically he's going to hurt you every time he takes a shot, and he brings nothing else to the table to make up for that. He was one of those point forward guys, but turned the ball over way to much to be an efficient passer. I'm also discouraged by the fact that he really didn't improve after joining some decent teams.

There's a reason he is far and away the career leader in loss shares despite being only 31.
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Old 06-15-2008, 04:42 PM   #12432
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

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In a league like this, taking a guy like bowen just kills your team if his sole purpose is 1 on 1 defense.

The teams in this league are so good that even if you give credit to bowen for shutting down the best wing player on a team, so what there are 4 other good scoring options usually out on the floor so he wont do much for the team defense as whole.


Compared with defensive players like Olajuwon or mourning, who will be helping out the whole team defense by stopping or altering a lot of shots in the painted area taking away a whole aspect of a teams offense.

Will bowen be altering any perimiter shots taken by any player ? Wing defenders are vastly overated and only as good as their interior help defense.

I would give the most credit to Raja bell out of that group of defenders ( bell, bowen, posey, battier ) Bell is the only one to be a great wing defender with almost no help from team defense. All the others have had at one time or a nother great team defense around them.
uh wat that's why u put a bunch of good/great defenders around Bowen, obviously if Bowen is ur only great defender ur team will fail defensivley....

Obv bigman defenders are more important than wing ones, but wing ones are also still very important. Of course Bowen will be altering perimiter players shots, hes one of the best SG/SF defenders of all time if not the best.
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Old 06-15-2008, 04:44 PM   #12433
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

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Originally Posted by Seadood228 View Post
In Dudd's defense, you don't have to completely understand how win shares are calculated to lend credibility to the stat.

You can sum a players importance by the following three criteria, and the stats that back this up:

1) The ability to score, or help your team score the most points on each possession.

2) The ability to create possessions for your team.

3) The ability to make your opponents make your opponents less efficient in their possessions.

Tione was average at 2&3, and absolutely deplorable at number one. I know the Boston homers love him, but he sucks as a player, especially in this format. Theoretically he's going to hurt you every time he takes a shot, and he brings nothing else to the table to make up for that. He was one of those point forward guys, but turned the ball over way to much to be an efficient passer. I'm also discouraged by the fact that he really didn't improve after joining some decent teams.

There's a reason he is far and away the career leader in loss shares despite being only 31.
I am a "boston homer" and I hate Walker and a lot of my friends hate him as well. His most valueable asset imo was motivating Pierce and getting offensive rebounds off his own misses
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Old 06-15-2008, 04:46 PM   #12434
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

and wiggling!
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Old 06-15-2008, 04:47 PM   #12435
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

battier > raja > bowen, imo
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Old 06-15-2008, 04:47 PM   #12436
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

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and wiggling!
Ya true... add that in
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Old 06-15-2008, 04:50 PM   #12437
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

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Although the difference is not much between jr and ben gordon. JR averaged the same type of numbers per 36 minutes as gordon on a team that was so fast paced that it makes Ben gordons averages weigh more. They are both equally bad 1 on 1 defenders doesnt matter about size JR cannot guard any solid starting 2 guard in the NBA, which is why the horribly anthony carter got the start all year long.

I give JR credit for finding the level of selfishness to find shots in a carmelo, iverson, kleisa offense. I guess playing in Denver causes you to just wanna shoot the ball anytime you touch it, besides carter and camby does anyone pass the ball on that team ? EVen kenyon martin just jacks up 20 footers anytime he touches it.
Their pace is only <7% higher, and even factoring that in JR's numbers are better. And there's no way in hell JR is a worse defender than Ben Gordon. none. Ben can't even challenge most SG's shot, he doesn't jump any passing lanes, nor does he create anything on the ball.

And LOL at saying the Nugs don't pass. They were second in assists, and fifth after adjusting pace. It's comments like that make me think you only watched these teams play a handful of games, and doesn't do much for their credibility.

Last edited by Seadood228; 06-15-2008 at 05:06 PM.
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Old 06-15-2008, 04:52 PM   #12438
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

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lol how can you say this, then trash the Posey pick? I think Posey is def better than Kersey but then again I didn't really see Kersey play so what am I missing?
Kersey imo was a decent pick. I always thought he was one of the best defenders in his day. I was pretty shocked when I looked back and saw that he didn't get any all D nods.
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Old 06-15-2008, 04:53 PM   #12439
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

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Ben Gordon isn't nearly as good as JR Smith
A+
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Old 06-15-2008, 04:54 PM   #12440
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

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Kersey imo was a decent pick. I always thought he was one of the best defenders in his day. I was pretty shocked when I looked back and saw that he didn't get any all D nods.
Ok that's fine but was he better than Posey at defense? And if so was he that much better (I highly doubt he was that much better on d).

And on offense it looks like he can't shoot at all, so defenders can play off him and not get punished.

I'm not saying it's a bad pick or anything, I just don't think how you can say he was an amazing pick and then trash the Posey pick.
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Old 06-15-2008, 04:54 PM   #12441
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

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Originally Posted by NopairParker View Post
In a league like this, taking a guy like bowen just kills your team if his sole purpose is 1 on 1 defense.

The teams in this league are so good that even if you give credit to bowen for shutting down the best wing player on a team, so what there are 4 other good scoring options usually out on the floor so he wont do much for the team defense as whole.

Compared with defensive players like Olajuwon or mourning, who will be helping out the whole team defense by stopping or altering a lot of shots in the painted area taking away a whole aspect of a teams offense.

Will bowen be altering any perimiter shots taken by any player ? Wing defenders are vastly overated and only as good as their interior help defense.

I would give the most credit to Raja bell out of that group of defenders ( bell, bowen, posey, battier ) Bell is the only one to be a great wing defender with almost no help from team defense. All the others have had at one time or a nother great team defense around them.

Interior D is more important than wing D, but if you think a team with interior D but without wing D can be a good defensive team, I refer you to the 2007-2008 Denver Nuggets.
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Old 06-15-2008, 05:00 PM   #12442
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

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Ok that's fine but was he better than Posey at defense?
Yes.

And unlike Posey, he was actually good enough to start, was more dynamic on offense, and had a significantly higher PER during his peak years.
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Old 06-15-2008, 05:02 PM   #12443
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

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Yes.

And unlike Posey, he was actually good enough to start, was more dynamic on offense, and had a significantly higher PER during his peak years.
lol Posey is good enough to start, and looks like he is def a much better off the ball offensive player (much better shooter).

PER underrates spotup shooters like Battier/Posey/Bell etc.
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Old 06-15-2008, 05:04 PM   #12444
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

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In a league like this, taking a guy like bowen just kills your team if his sole purpose is 1 on 1 defense.

The teams in this league are so good that even if you give credit to bowen for shutting down the best wing player on a team, so what there are 4 other good scoring options usually out on the floor so he wont do much for the team defense as whole.
Cutting down a 1/5 of a team's options will do a lot of good for your defense, especially if it's their best player.

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Compared with defensive players like Olajuwon or mourning, who will be helping out the whole team defense by stopping or altering a lot of shots in the painted area taking away a whole aspect of a teams offense.
Common sense that a big man defender is much more important than a wing-defender, but how many championship teams have done it without a lock down guy on the wing? Bowen, Posey, Jordan, and a couple undrafted players strongly disagree.,

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Will bowen be altering any perimiter shots taken by any player ?
He will lower the players efficiency if that's what you mean.

Quote:
Wing defenders are vastly overated and only as good as their interior help defense.
You could be right but it does seem to be one of the ingredients for success.

Quote:
I would give the most credit to Raja bell out of that group of defenders ( bell, bowen, posey, battier ) Bell is the only one to be a great wing defender with almost no help from team defense. All the others have had at one time or a nother great team defense around them.
So you have to have a bad defense behind you to be a good wing defender?
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Old 06-15-2008, 05:04 PM   #12445
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

Epippen did you watch Kersey play?
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Old 06-15-2008, 05:05 PM   #12446
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

its funny that one innocent "comparing shooters to creators is like apples to oranges" comment sparked a 2 pg debate.

my point regarding this, and TS% was that you cant compare shooters to creators easily because shooters would be largely ineffective without creators, whereas creators are roughly the same regardless of the presence of shooters. therefore, some teams need to bite the bullet and pick Stackhouse (or even Antoine) in order to help the other dependent players on the team score.

hence, the 5 carmelos vs the 5 battiers argument that followed
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Old 06-15-2008, 05:05 PM   #12447
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

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Epippen did you watch Kersey play?
No I said I didn't but am I wrong that he was an amazing 3pt shooter even though the stats clearly show otherwise?
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Old 06-15-2008, 05:07 PM   #12448
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

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No I said I didn't but am I wrong that he was an amazing 3pt shooter even though the stats clearly show otherwise?
I am just surprised to see the "lol do you guys even watch the games" anti stat guy argue player A is better than player B when he hasn't seen player B play.
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Old 06-15-2008, 05:07 PM   #12449
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

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lol Posey is good enough to start, and looks like he is def a much better off the ball offensive player (much better shooter).

PER underrates spotup shooters like Battier/Posey/Bell etc.
It doesn't underrate them relative to other players when the other player is a superior defender.

And no, he's not good enough to start, not really. Miami wasn't hella deep, Memphis needed all the help they could get and in neither case did he get more than 30mpg. Boston was one of only a few teams even interested in him this offseason for not even the midlevel.

He is what he is, which is a very nice bench player who was taken way too high in this draft. Since he was taken over a round ago, only a handful of players that have been picked were worse players than him. This whole discussion is 100% based on Boston homers overrating a guy who they saw on TV yesterday and is fresh in their memory.
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Old 06-15-2008, 05:09 PM   #12450
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

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Yes.

And unlike Posey, he was actually good enough to start, was more dynamic on offense, and had a significantly higher PER during his peak years.
But McHale was good enough to start, he just didnt want to.
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