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Old 06-15-2008, 10:15 AM   #12401
EPiPeN11
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

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Originally Posted by Gary Stevenson View Post
2. Ben Gordon isn't nearly as good as JR Smith, and to put him in the same sentence as Bruce Bowen is a travesty IMO. I can't imagine wanting Ben Gordon over Bowen unless your team has no offense. Are you all forgetting that Gordon's too small to guard shooting guards, so it's very tough to put him out there with a lot of lineups? I mean, he's PG sized so you're basically putting two PG's on the floor on defense. I really can't imagine saying he'd be better than Bowen on any team. It's insane.

+1 my exact point
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Old 06-15-2008, 10:18 AM   #12402
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

Also Bowen can hurt his team offensively and we've seen that in the playoffs having to sub Bown out. Theoretically though this should be less of an issue in this league because you are going to have very good scorers pretty far down your depth chart, whereas in SA they didn't have that when Manu went cold... Still, I love the Bowen pick.
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Old 06-15-2008, 10:27 AM   #12403
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

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lol he won't hurt u offensivley, infact he helps u since he is a great 3pt shooter from the corner (although other off the ball shooters help u more since they can shoot 3's from more than 1 spot, but it's not a huge deal).

People don't realize they don't need Bruce Bowen to do anything on offense but space the floor and knock down 3's, they already have 3 shot creators in Duncan, Manu, Parker.
I can buy the argument for Battier/Bell/Posey. These guys can do other things beside hit the 3 from the corner. If Bowen is forced to do anything other than shoot a corner 3 he's ridiculously bad at it. Plus, Battier and Posey are actually good rebounders, unlike Bowen who just parks his ass at the corner and waits for someone to double one of the best post players of all time.
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Old 06-15-2008, 10:41 AM   #12404
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

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I just addressed point #2 above with my Carmelo Anthony comments.
Hmm... if someone had drafted Carmelo Anthony with their first 5 picks I guess it would address point #2. Now tell me, who in the league has drafted like this?

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On #1 like I said players who shoot mostly 3's, 3pt percentage is more important than TS%.
But this isn't true. You can't just magically forget about everytime they don't shoot a 3, right? A guy like Bruce Bowen still shoots a lot of 2s and that's gonna hurt you everytime he takes that shot (or goes to the line).

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Also people don't realize someone who creates their own shot more (has the ball in their hands) will have a lower TS% than someone who just takes open jump shots. TS% also doesn't show what type of player u are, ie. a team full of high TS% people who can't shoot the 3 and all need the ball in their hands to be effective wouldn't work.
People realize this, but they also realize just because some people who "create their own shot" are terrible, doesn't mean that everyone who has to creat their own shot is inefficient.

On your second point... who has drafted like this? Seriously, you keep saying stuff like this but you still haven't said anything specific.
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Old 06-15-2008, 10:46 AM   #12405
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

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Hmm... if someone had drafted Carmelo Anthony with their first 5 picks I guess it would address point #2. Now tell me, who in the league has drafted like this?
The guy who had the Wade/Ellis/Wallace team, the Jordan team is also like this except for 1 3pt shooter (Terry), Lebron team only has 1 3pt shooter too (Petrovic), the Duncan team has very little 3pt shooting as well, heck even ur team lacks top knotch 3pt shooting except for Porter


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Originally Posted by Jack of Arcades View Post
But this isn't true. You can't just magically forget about everytime they don't shoot a 3, right? A guy like Bruce Bowen still shoots a lot of 2s and that's gonna hurt you everytime he takes that shot (or goes to the line).
Of course not, but Bowen's 3pt percentage means a lot more than his 2pt percentage, because even when hes NOT shooting 3's (ie. standing in the corner), he is still a factor because of his high 3pt percentage from there (ie. forcing the defense to stay with him).

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People realize this, but they also realize just because some people who "create their own shot" are terrible, doesn't mean that everyone who has to creat their own shot is inefficient.
I never said everyone who created their own shot is inefficient, just that players who create their own shot their percentages go down.
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Old 06-15-2008, 11:01 AM   #12406
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

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Gordon's a great pick, but I think JR is a better sixth man. If we compare Ben Gordon's 24 year old season to JR's season last year(23 year old):

Per 36 minutes

Gordon - 21 PTS / .558TS / 3.3 AST / .9 STL / 2.4 TO
Smith - 23 PTS / .603TS / 3.2 AST / 1.6 STL / 2.8 TO

JR was more efficient and scored more points on a per minute basis. JR obviously didn't get the minutes that Ben had, but his splits show that his numbers got better the more minutes he played. JR is bigger which should lead to less defensive mismatches, and according to 82 games scored inside twice as often, whilst shooting a much higher percentage on inside shots (.595 vs. .475). Overall I think this makes JR tougher to defend.

LOL defensive mismatches... that didn't come out right.
Come on. JR Smith plays a lot of his minutes against backups, is fresher when he plays and plays on a significantly faster paced and better offensive teams than Ben Gordon. And Gordon has done what he is doing for 3-4 years, JR Smith for 1 if that.
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Old 06-15-2008, 11:13 AM   #12407
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

Ok my internet has been out for a week and is still out (at panera) did it get to me yet?
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Old 06-15-2008, 11:17 AM   #12408
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

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Come on. JR Smith plays a lot of his minutes against backups, is fresher when he plays and plays on a significantly faster paced and better offensive teams than Ben Gordon. And Gordon has done what he is doing for 3-4 years, JR Smith for 1 if that.
They both played against backups, and both players were on the floor late in games. Even if you adjust for pace JR had better numbers. Experience plays a factor, but that's one of the few things Ben has on KR. Even so, JR has improved every season, whereas Ben Gordon's numbers went a little south last year. So yeah Ben has 4 years of similar play to JR's 2, but JR is already a better player at a younger age. He has more size, length, athleticism, and has more weapons in his arsenal. Most importantly, his career is decidedly on the upturn at 24 whereas Ben's seems to have stagnated or possibly gone down.

If this were a real draft, the player already who's better and been improving year by year would almost always go above the guy who's been consistently good. Especially when you factor that this player is bigger, faster, and more athletic.

Even if you buy into the "played against bench players" line, then that means that he also played with bench players, making his job as a scorer harder. He also played in a tougher conference against tougher competition... but I don't think any of those arguments hold water.

Last edited by Seadood228; 06-15-2008 at 11:39 AM.
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Old 06-15-2008, 11:18 AM   #12409
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

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Ok my internet has been out for a week and is still out (at panera) did it get to me yet?
nope, but we're close!
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Old 06-15-2008, 01:21 PM   #12410
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

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Clark,

Anyone fit better than Posey yet on my team? I'm still looking forward to the 8th round when you get someone as good as Posey.
I think most players chosen since Posey are better than Posey.
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Old 06-15-2008, 01:22 PM   #12411
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

Jerome Kersey is an absurdly good pick here.
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Old 06-15-2008, 01:24 PM   #12412
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

Ben Gordon has played on a team with zero offensive gameplan and less than zero post play for his whole career. He's basically been forced into an Iverson dribble around and create role, especially last year. He would be vastly better on a team with other options and an actual offensive game plan.
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Old 06-15-2008, 01:39 PM   #12413
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

I was wondering where Employee #8 would go. He would be an awesome player if he wasn't such an unrepentant chucker.
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Old 06-15-2008, 01:40 PM   #12414
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

Still want to trade up after being shot down approx. 51935935 times.
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Old 06-15-2008, 01:40 PM   #12415
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

man how do you not have a youtube link to an antoine shimmy? i love antoine/your team just because they are so "cool". hopefully someone can explain it better than me
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Old 06-15-2008, 01:41 PM   #12416
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

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Still want to trade up after being shot down approx. 51935935 times.
3 picks, matt
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Old 06-15-2008, 01:47 PM   #12417
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ksnHH...eature=related

jesus christ, im looking at old highlights, hakeem was just as quick as a perimeter player, blocking that shot. wow.

i really like the music they play during those highlights, it's a little sappy but really cool
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Old 06-15-2008, 01:54 PM   #12418
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EhETq...eature=related

this one just sucks the life out of me watching it.
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Old 06-15-2008, 02:59 PM   #12419
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

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Originally Posted by EPiPeN11 View Post

Of course not, but Bowen's 3pt percentage means a lot more than his 2pt percentage, because even when hes NOT shooting 3's (ie. standing in the corner), he is still a factor because of his high 3pt percentage from there (ie. forcing the defense to stay with him).

Bruce bowen shooting % does not force the defense to stay with him as the sole reaon he's shooting such a high % is because the defense left him alone in the corner.
He's a terrible offensive player.
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Old 06-15-2008, 03:00 PM   #12420
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

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Originally Posted by BobboFitos View Post
man how do you not have a youtube link to an antoine shimmy? i love antoine/your team just because they are so "cool". hopefully someone can explain it better than me

lol - good call

mods: for some reason I can't edit my post in the "draft only" thread, would you please put the following link in my antoine walker post:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uwsbJa9QyKo&NR=1
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Old 06-15-2008, 03:06 PM   #12421
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

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this one just sucks the life out of me watching it.
I can't find it right now (on my phone) but you gotta link to the same clip with the Marv Albert call.

D

EDIT: should this be linked right now? This player hasn't been taken yet.

Last edited by D104; 06-15-2008 at 03:12 PM.
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Old 06-15-2008, 03:12 PM   #12422
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

i tend to disagree with about 80% of tbach's posts
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Old 06-15-2008, 03:18 PM   #12423
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

because there are no 4s!
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Old 06-15-2008, 04:10 PM   #12424
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

I have no idea what it means or what it calculates, but Antoine is -109.5 WSAA for his career. Like I said, I'm sure what it means, but dear lord, that's an absurdly large negative number. Oh, and he's also led the league in loss shares a staggering 5 times during his career, which again, I have no idea what it means, but I don't think it's good. Oh, and he's a chucker with a career .484 TS%. So yeah, not sure I'd want him on my team.
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Old 06-15-2008, 04:18 PM   #12425
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

The funny part is that not many people know what these numbers mean, yet they use them quite seriously in trying to discuss the validity of a player.

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I have no idea what it means or what it calculates, but Antoine is -109.5 WSAA for his career. Like I said, I'm sure what it means, but dear lord, that's an absurdly large negative number. Oh, and he's also led the league in loss shares a staggering 5 times during his career, which again, I have no idea what it means, but I don't think it's good. Oh, and he's a chucker with a career .484 TS%. So yeah, not sure I'd want him on my team.
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