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Old 06-15-2008, 12:55 AM   #12351
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

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This is why 2 way players (Bowen/Battier/Bell/Posey/Prince etc) are soooooooooooooooooooooooooooo much more valueable than spot up shooters who can't play defense.

I'm really starting to wonder if over half of the people in this thread/forum actually watch basketball instead of looking at basketball referance.
Truth. A great spot-up shooter who does literally nothing else won't be more than neutral offensively unless the defense ****s up, so he has to be a a good defender to have a big impact on your team.
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Old 06-15-2008, 12:55 AM   #12352
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

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Because when a guy can't do anything but spot up shoot, all you have to do is leave a defender on him and he won't get his shot anymore. If a guy could shoot well enough from 3 to have a TS of .800 then the defense would just never leave him to help in other areas.
this is why super high TS players dont exist (also because its hard to shoot that well). in general, though, NBA coaches/players are generally bad estimators of +EV, so spot-up shooters often have a higher "efficiency" than creators. that is, they help off of knockdown shooters too often
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Old 06-15-2008, 12:56 AM   #12353
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

Then he wouldn't be a shooter who is capable of shooting .800 in the NBA. Since the two players who kicked off this discussion were Ben Gordon and Jerry Stackhouse, two guys with similar usage rates, I think it's clear that when we talk about efficient scoring, we're not talking about Bruce Bowen like he's some offensive stud.
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Old 06-15-2008, 12:58 AM   #12354
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

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Then he wouldn't be a shooter who is capable of shooting .800 in the NBA. Since the two players who kicked off this discussion were Ben Gordon and Jerry Stackhouse, two guys with similar usage rates, I think it's clear that when we talk about efficient scoring, we're not talking about Bruce Bowen like he's some offensive stud.
The whole point is Bruce Bowen >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Ben Gordon or Jerry Stackhouse especially in this league (and probably just a few >>'s less in the real NBA)

I swear you people don't realize the difference between off the ball offense and on the ball offense (or even know what it is for that matter)
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Old 06-15-2008, 01:01 AM   #12355
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

Well, Gordon's not just a spot-up shooter, though. Dude is significantly better than a wash offensively, while Bowen is the posterboy for that. Apples to oranges, IMO.

Although, I do agree that Bowen is the better player.
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Old 06-15-2008, 01:01 AM   #12356
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

Thats way to many >>>'s when u consider you lose productive years with him.
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Old 06-15-2008, 01:01 AM   #12357
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

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Thats way to many >>>'s when u consider you lose productive years with him.
ok true I was just comparing their primes
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Old 06-15-2008, 01:02 AM   #12358
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

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Well, Gordon's not just a spot-up shooter, though. Dude is significantly better than a wash offensively, while Bowen is the posterboy for that. Apples to oranges, IMO.

Although, I do agree that Bowen is the better player.
Go ahead and run your offense through Ben Gordon pls. Anytime Ben Gordon has the ball in his hands trying to create a shot, it's a win for the defense (and I like Ben Gordon too).
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Old 06-15-2008, 01:03 AM   #12359
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

Its all about fits. Bowen is a better fit with most teams since he is an insane defender. But if you have defense on the wings, bringing a guy like Gordon off the bench is pretty huge and a great asset.
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Old 06-15-2008, 01:04 AM   #12360
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

Well, Bruce Bowen is probably a bad example since he's considered the best wing defender in the NBA over the last 8 or 9 seasons, while Gordon isn't thought of that highly. The only reason he slipped in this draft was his late peak, otherwise he would have rightly gone much higher. The point is though that when you take two players with similar usage rates and similar other things (defense, rebounding, passing, etc), the guy with the higher efficiency is probably a better player, and just because he's not as good of a slasher doesn't automatically mean that his higher efficiency is somehow inferior.
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Old 06-15-2008, 01:05 AM   #12361
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

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Its all about fits. Bowen is a better fit with most teams since he is an insane defender. But if you have defense on the wings, bringing a guy like Gordon off the bench is pretty huge and a great asset.
Give me Bowen anyday of the week assuming u drafted well and have 3-4 all-stars already who can score/create their own shots.
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Old 06-15-2008, 01:07 AM   #12362
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

Look, the point isn't Bowen, he was just the first name of a drafted player who came to mind whose sole offensive game is stand in the corner and wait for your defender to leave.
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Old 06-15-2008, 01:07 AM   #12363
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

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Well, Bruce Bowen is probably a bad example since he's considered the best wing defender in the NBA over the last 8 or 9 seasons, while Gordon isn't thought of that highly. The only reason he slipped in this draft was his late peak, otherwise he would have rightly gone much higher. The point is though that when you take two players with similar usage rates and similar other things (defense, rebounding, passing, etc), the guy with the higher efficiency is probably a better player, and just because he's not as good of a slasher doesn't automatically mean that his higher efficiency is somehow inferior.
Ok fine give me James Posey over Ben Gordon any day of the week (assuming u have players who can create their own shots).
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Old 06-15-2008, 01:10 AM   #12364
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

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The point is though that when you take two players with similar usage rates and similar other things (defense, rebounding, passing, etc), the guy with the higher efficiency is probably a better player, and just because he's not as good of a slasher doesn't automatically mean that his higher efficiency is somehow inferior.
I don't think anybody's going to argue that when two players are equal in every way except TS%, that the player who shoots better is better overall. But that's true with anything isn't it? If we have two equal players but one gets 5 rebounds and the other gets 7, the guy with 7 is better, right?

I don't even know what we're arguing about anymore or who's side I'm on.
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Old 06-15-2008, 01:11 AM   #12365
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

I honestly just think a lot of people in this draft don't realize we are playing with only one basketball just like in the real nba.
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Old 06-15-2008, 01:15 AM   #12366
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

Well, the original comparison was Stackhouse to BG, two guys who are primarily known for their scoring, and KLJ said that you couldn't compare the two because BG shoots more and Stackhouse is more of a slasher. I just don't see why a guy who can pull up from 3 point range is automatically less valuable than a guy whose primary game is working off the dribble. It's like the only thing that matters to some people is who you would rather have with the ball in his hands and the shot clock running down, regardless of what he does the other 20 seconds of the shot clock.
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Old 06-15-2008, 01:18 AM   #12367
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

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Well, the original comparison was Stackhouse to BG, two guys who are primarily known for their scoring, and KLJ said that you couldn't compare the two because BG shoots more and Stackhouse is more of a slasher. I just don't see why a guy who can pull up from 3 point range is automatically less valuable than a guy whose primary game is working off the dribble. It's like the only thing that matters to some people is who you would rather have with the ball in his hands and the shot clock running down, regardless of what he does the other 20 seconds of the shot clock.
Ok fair enough, none of those guys are more valueable than a very good/elite defender who can hit the 3 at 40+ percent though (especially in this league) which is the point i'm making.

Personally I would never want my offense running through Stackhouse or Gordon for that matter (especially in this league), so I would give the edge to Gordon since he is a much better off the ball offensive player than Stackhouse and both their defense is suspect.
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Old 06-15-2008, 01:20 AM   #12368
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

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I honestly just think a lot of people in this draft don't realize we are playing with only one basketball just like in the real nba.
I think you think that people are saying things they're not. I doubt anybody in this thread would say that Gordon > Bowen under any circumstances.

Well, I guess Gordon would be better on a team of dikembe, Rodman, Posey and Raja, so I shouldn't say "Any circumstances", but I digress -- we all agree that Bowen is better so we can stop quoting each other and saying obvious stuff now.
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Old 06-15-2008, 01:21 AM   #12369
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

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I think you think that people are saying things they're not. I doubt anybody in this thread would say that Gordon > Bowen under any circumstances.

Well, I guess Gordon would be better on a team of dikembe, Rodman, Posey and Raja, so I shouldn't say "Any circumstances", but I digress -- we all agree that Bowen is better so we can stop quoting each other and saying obvious stuff now.
Ok fair enough, I just got home and skimed through this thread so I didn't read everything carefully.
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Old 06-15-2008, 01:42 AM   #12370
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

OK, just read next time before you hi-jack the thread.
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Old 06-15-2008, 01:47 AM   #12371
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

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I honestly just think a lot of people in this draft don't realize we are playing with only one basketball just like in the real nba.
List examples of people who fit this description. Also, list bad picks who you felt were made only on the basis of TS% and TS% alone and why these were bad picks.

Because it's getting really annoying when you're throwing this thing out there - and you're not the only one - who's trying to pretend like so many people are worshiping at the altar of TS%.
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Old 06-15-2008, 01:58 AM   #12372
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

epip,

I have absolutely no clue what you're arguing or if it even makes any sense.
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Old 06-15-2008, 01:58 AM   #12373
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

umm i might say that gordon>bowen.
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Old 06-15-2008, 02:03 AM   #12374
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

yeah, I might too. Not sure why Bowen is all of the sudden some beastly force
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Old 06-15-2008, 02:10 AM   #12375
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

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umm i might say that gordon>bowen.
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yeah, I might too. Not sure why Bowen is all of the sudden some beastly force
Pretty much feel the same way.
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