Francis is a ****ing G.

nath is kind of forced to draft a gay teammate for him to be in love with, though

Hes still available.

Francis is good on paper, I didn't want him on my team though. His career is tumbling though and he had an early start.

I was about to take Nick Anderson 2 rounds ago - just kept passsing. ****. He was top on my list of 3 guys I must get with my next pick. Good pick - and damn U. I still think he works with my team better though - oh - time to cross my fingers and hope one of two guys drop down to me with my next pick (but I highly doubt it).

Im looking to trade up - PM me any offers - Im willing to get ripped off.

Lot's of great debate on these last few picks.

Bruce Bowen - First of all I love the pick, but here's my take on what's been discussed.

3 point shooting and age - I'm definitely in the camp that thinks he wasn't a good shooter, at least not enough to stay in the league, his first time out. This is due to a) to the infrequency of such shots early on and b) the fact that it's known he worked heavily on this aspect of his game to stay in the league.

As far as TS% being a negative, I actually like Epip's line that it's not nearly as important as 3PT% in Bruce Bowen's role. With that said, if he had the ability to drive/finish/shoot FT's, or even shoot from somewhere other than the corner, he'd be that much better. As it stands, his ability to accurately hit the 3's in that spot make him a break even player on offense......

....which is about all you need when you are that good of a perimeter defender. And when I say good, I mean the best... at least since I've been watching basketball. There are guys who are good because they play physical, other guys that are quick with their hands and feet, a few guys who are long enough to make up for their mistakes, and then there are guys who just flat out work their butts off. Bruce Bowen excels in all of the above, and has a knack for toeing the line with the refs. Love him or hate him, the guy is just a sick sick defender.

I can live with the low TS%. The fact that he got a late start is a negative, but like someone said that is all that prevented him from going in round 3-4.

I really like this team.

Derek Fisher - I like this pick more than most. At this stage, especially at PG, you are looking for players who aren't going to hurt your team. There are several PG's that have been picked whom I wouldn't touch with a 10 foot pole, and imo Derek Fisher is a better fit than most of them.

Nick Anderson - I'm meh on this pick. For a guy who shot so much, I hate the fact he couldn't hit free throws or get to the whole more often. That and his choke jobs in the playoffs are burned into my memory.

Steve Francis - I think Bobbo nailed it. And I'm going to reiterate my point previously in this thread that I think true PG's have to some degree been overrated in this draft. Much of a PG's job is going to be creating opportunities for his teammates, but in a draft such as this there is less of a need, because scoring will be more abundant. Also, having a true "all-star" PG has never really been an imperative for success in the NBA, not nearly as much as having dominant big man.

Choke jobs?

He did have those 4 FTs in a series that they ended up getting swept in anyway, which lead to 3 months of poor FT shooting before he got his head back together, but he was a career 70% (except for the Houston series + the next 3 months of the regular season) guy on FTs. Oddly, he still maintained a high FG% during this time, but had a mental block when he got to the line.

He was a good creator off the dribble, so I have no idea where you get that from.

I picked him for what he gives: solid wing D, 3pt % in the 35% range and the ability to create off the dribble. Also, you'll notice that his attempts/game go down w/ the addition of Shaq and Penny, showing that he is a team-first guy who doesn't need to carry the offense, but has the ability to.

Havent been on since yesterday afternoon, give me a few minutes to sort this all out. I will consider trade offers, but I like just picking, so let me see whats up...

Love the Nick pick.

Fisher = Posey

me and mchale have a trade

my 210+250+311 for his 220+260+266

McHale trades in just about every round.

Round 6, pick 210

Raja Bell SG/SF



Let's get the bad stuff out of the way first. The biggest knock on Bell is this format, he doesn't become a good player/defender until year 4 in Utah, but that is fine because it took McHale 2-3 years to become very good and like 4 years to become great (and peaked around year 6 where Bell will also be peaking). Billups also had a pretty good first 2 years, but didn't start tearing stuff up until year 3, and kept getting better after that as well. And Deng/Martin are still very young, but are immediate impacts right away but should continue to improve and help solidify this team for it's championship runs in year 4 and beyond.

Now the good stuff.

I was hoping Bruce Bowen would fall to me, but once he was taken I had to take one of the last very good/elite Wing defenders who also is a deadly 3pt shooter. Bell is one of the toughest/best defenders in the NBA. He will allow Kevin Martin to come off the bench in year 4+ and will give me a 4 very good/elite defenders in my starting lineup (I haven't picked a center yet but it will also be a very good/elite defender as well which will make 5), Billups/Bell/Deng/McHale/Center with Martin comining off the bench for instant offense. That starting lineup can score as well, and space the floor ridiculously well. Infact every player I have is a deadly shooter except for Deng who is still pretty good from midrange, which will make it easy for my stars to go 1 on 1 or else teams will pay for double teams. Bell is also an elite 3pt shooter (Starting in year 4 he shot .373, .403, .442, .413, .401)

Bell can't create his own shot that well, but that's fine, we don't want him too. We just want him to defend the other teams sg and frustrate them as much as possible with his very good/elite defense. Bell is also a good ft shooter .780 for his career and that's including his first 3 years where he didn't shoot a ft, shot .750, and shot .676. All my players are either elite ft shooters (Billups/Martin), or very good McHale/Bell/Deng, which means when they get to the foul line it will result in a lot of points, and when I am up at the end of close games, I can give it to my closers preferably (Billups/Martin) but can feel very comfertable if anyone else on my team gets it as well.

Like I said above, with this team I expect to get crushed right away (Deng/Martin are both really good but the rest of the team will take a few years to develop). However in year 4 and beyond, I should have one of, if not the strongest team in the league and will be able to compete for championships.

Team so far:

PG: Chauncey Billups
SG: Raja Bell
SF: Luol Deng
PF: Kevin McHale
C: ?

Bench:

SG: Kevin Martin

Ok I didn't want to get into this argument as obv I thought Posey was a great pick (and Bowen as well) and was targetting these off the ball elite defenders/shooters but for someone who I think is pretty smart i'm surprised u don't like them Clark.

Yes every team needs stars, but every team needs wing defenders who can knock down 3s and space the floor. I do agree that the 3rd round like taking Battier was a huge mistake, as you can get someone comparable in this round (Bowen/Bell), but this is the round they should be going in (if not round 5).

There is only one basketball, the reason you can't just draft stars to fill this role, is there are no stars left that are as good of defenders as Posey/Bowen/Bell who can also knock down the 3 at like 40 percent.

Like I said above, there is only one basketball, you need players who can play off the ball like Posey/Bowen/Bell can and help space the floor, while providing great defense at the other end.

ePeen, for the first time I'm starting to like your team. you managed your 'window' well I think. two things though:

1. depth, ldo. will be interesting to see what happens regarding this.
2. there are no elite defensive centers left, and debatably no very good ones either. however, if you know your guys, I think there is
still a few good ones that you can hope slip (or trade up for, which seems to be your style)

my $.02

already on it

Which reminds me, I am now okay with a 12 round draft

1. I will get into later on (or even possibly after the draft is over) as I don't want to discuss this just like with the Posey/Bowen picks

2. There might not be any elite defensive centers left (although i'd argue a few of them are elite), but there are a lot of very good/good ones left (like a lot seriously.) They are much more common than very good/elite wing defenders who can also knock down the 3 at a high percentage (I can only think of 2 very good wing defenders who can shoot the 3 left who are def worse on defense than Bell is but are better on offense at creating their own shot, but they aren't better at off the ball offense ie. shooting 3's (although it's somewhat close), which is what the role they would be playing for my team would be so imo for my team Bell would better on offense as well).

That is why I traded up to get Bell, as I feel I can easily get at least a good, if not a very good center defender as there a lot of these left, where as the very good/elite wing defenders who can shoot the 3 are pretty much gone now (like I said I can only think of 2 left, and they could never be called elite defenders where as Bell could, and they can't shoot the 3 as well either although they are both very good 3pt shooters)

I wanted to address this point as it was referring to Bowen but applies to players like Bell/Posey/Battier etc. as well. I think these players are actually + offensive players which their stats don't suggest. Infact I think sometimes if they score very few points, they can have a better offensive game than someone who scores more points.

Let me explain further, what makes these players so valueable on offense is the defender has to stay with them, or else they will give up an open 3 (simple terms as yes sometimes people can rotate but usually when u get the defense rotating like that, these guys are good enough passers to find the next open man)

So say the defender stays with Bell/Posey/Bowen/Battier etc. all game long, and they get 0 points and didn't even take a shot. They still were effective on offense. Why? Because they spread the floor and allowed ur star offensive players to go 4 on 4 instead of 5 on 5.

Now if the defender leaves them to double, the defender will a ton of the time pay as these guys are almost all 40+ percent 3pt shooters who thrive off open looks.

Now I have a good example of a player who I can't name who hasn't been drafted. But he can't shoot a 3, infact his midrange shot is pretty shaky as well, and he needs the ball in his hands to be effective. Now let's say they gave him the ball on a few cuts to the basket and he scored a decent amount of points (lets say 12 for arguments sake). However each time he was out by the 3pt line/even midrange line, the defense doubled off him cause they didn't have to respect his jump shot. He hurts the offense overall (where as Bell/Bowen/Battier etc. helped by forcing the defender to stay with them and letting everyone go 4 on 4), because if the guy who is getting doubled doesn't pass him the ball because he can't trust him to hit a jump shot, he is forced to take a tough shot into a double team. And if he does pass him the ball, the guy tends to either turn down a ton of open shots (because he struggles hitting them) which results in him having to give the ball back to the star with the shot clock running down, or driving to the hoop where defenders are able to recover in time (infact they want this player driving to the hoop more than star players for obvious reasons), or he takes shots at a low percentage which also hurts the offense.

Again a lot of this doesn't even show up in the stat sheet as they don't have a stat for how many open looks u turned down, or how many times it was ur ability to not be able to shoot which resulted in one of ur star players having to take a tough shot, but this is a very important part of basketball.

That was long but I tried to explain it as well as I can. Like I have said before, there is only one basketball, meaning only one person can touch the ball at a given time, and you need players to spread the floor with deadly 3pt shots who don't need the ball in their hands to be effective (infact it doesn't matter that Bell/Bowen etc. can't create their own shot as they don't need to to be good on offense, I mean it would obv be great if they could create their own shots at a high percentage while being great defenders/great 3pt shooters but those players went in the first 2 rounds).

seems like awesome trade for ePeen imo

+10, +10, -45

eh to be honest I think it's very fair

obviously it can work out to be + for both teams, but in terms of surface value id surprised if others didn't agree with me. could be off base of course

Would have loved to see Bowen or Bell still on the board (great picks guys), but since they're gone...

I'm beefing up down low with Jamal Mashburn.

Cons: Not a great rebounder for his size at only a little over five per game. Suffered from injuries throughout his career (which is why it's awesome that I'll have him off my bench to play limited minutes). His best seasons were pre-24 until he was nearly 30 (I think this trying to find players who were great AT 24 is somewhat nitty, by the way. If this is a 5-season All-Star type league I think each owner ought to be able to designate five seasons, as long as they're consecutive...just a thought).

Pros: Can provide a serious scoring spike off the bench for my team. He also passes the ball extremely well for a guy his size at 4 apg throughout his career. He's not a rim defender, but he can defend a lot of different guys on the floor with his length and quickness.

What I LOVE about Mash is that he gives me great rotational flexibility, because he can come in for any of three guys. If Yao gets in foul trouble, we move Thomas to the five, Mash to the four, and play some run 'n'gun small-ball that Bibby, Melo, and Fin will excel at. If Thomas needs to sit, easy fit...lose some interior defense inserting Mash, but you gain some scoring, passing, and defensive flexibility.

Even if Melo needs to sit, we can go big at that point with Yao at the 5, Thomas at the 4, and Mash at 3. This guy fits in really well on my bench. He also continues the trend of this team KILLING you at the line as a 76% lifetime FT shooter...oh, and for a guy with Mash's post scoring ability, he can also shoot the 3 reasonably well at almost 35% for his career.

Team to date:
PG - Mike Bibby
SG - Michael Finley
SF - Carmelo Anthony
PF - Kurt Thomas
C- Yao Ming
Bn - Jamal Mashburn

Love Mashburn, should've gone a long time ago.

wanted raja really bad and knew he'd go within 4 picks of Bowen. you're all sheep and I dislike you for it.

skill wise, for sure. taking injuries into account? i think this is about right. maybe even early, considering the knee damage was pre-24

regarding him playing the 4, i never remember that. i thought he was strictly a 3, but i'll list him as both on the spreadsheet and we can debate it later if necessary