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Old 06-13-2008, 08:29 PM   #12226
Assani Fisher
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

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Originally Posted by EPiPeN11 View Post
Ya people on here use ts% wayyyyyyy too much.

I will tell you how ts% is useful, its useful for guys who have the ball in their hands and create their own shots.

I will tell you how ts% is NOT useful, its for players like Bowen who just spot up and shoot 3's. (3pt percentage is more useful than ts% for these players).
3pt% ignores the fact that Bowen sucks at FTs and can't finish well around the rim. TS% takes all of this into account. Basically one stat gives us more info than the other.
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Old 06-13-2008, 08:30 PM   #12227
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

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Originally Posted by capone0 View Post
His 23 year old season was f-in sick, there is no doubt. Just think Payton and Kidd's careers trump him pretty hard especially since they have longetivity and they played great D. Thomas is probally a better pure passer than Payton and equivalent of Kidd I just think they had much better careers. I definitely exagerrated that Kidd, Payton >>> Thomas, but I think they are better.
You really think Zeke passed as well as Kidd?
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Old 06-13-2008, 08:30 PM   #12228
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

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Originally Posted by Assani Fisher View Post
+1

I'd go:

Tier 1
1. Magic
2. Stockton

Tier 2
3. CP3
4. Payton
5. Kidd
6. Nash
7. Zeke

Tier 3
8. Deron
9. Chauncey
10. KJ
I don't think Billups is that great of a PG, he's more of a combo to me.
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Old 06-13-2008, 08:31 PM   #12229
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

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You really think Zeke passed as well as Kidd?
I didn't get to see much Zeke but their numbers are similar. Definitely think Kidd is a better though..........AST% are similar 41 vs 39.
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Old 06-13-2008, 08:31 PM   #12230
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

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I don't think Billups is that great of a PG, he's more of a combo to me.
It doesn't really matter though, does it? If you can line Billups up with 4 other guys who can't defend the other team's PG regularly and who definitely aren't PGs on offense, then that pretty much means Billups can run the point.
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Old 06-13-2008, 08:34 PM   #12231
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

I just don't think he's a top 10 PG in this period.
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Old 06-13-2008, 08:40 PM   #12232
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

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Originally Posted by capone0 View Post
I just don't think he's a top 10 PG in this period.
a-****ing-men

For this draft, I had Billups at 11, Deron at 13.

quite early imo (yes a few spots matters when we're talking about the first round)
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Old 06-13-2008, 08:40 PM   #12233
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

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Originally Posted by capone0 View Post
Are quantified this later but xorbie said complete PGs, there aren't that many complete PGs in the draft. I listed the top 15 picked, I just don't think Deron, Billups and a list of others are elite either they are incomplete. Magic isnt' complete but he's a guy I'd definitely put in my top 5 easy though. Completeness shouldn't mean a guy isn't elite or not. I agree that those are the elite PGs and the rest aren't that close. The Derons, KJ, etc. are in the next tier, I think there are only 5 or so elite level pgs as well.
I'm not sure where we are disagreeing... I said there were few elite PG (like 6-7 most seem to think) whereas there are more "elite" or "very very good" bigs but that beyond that, the talent pool for PG was more consistent. You still have PG with solid careers taken in the 4th, 5th round. A lot of the PF/C taken are either defensive specialists or people who played no defense or people who did a lot of coke.
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Old 06-13-2008, 08:42 PM   #12234
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

Well look at his team as well, McHale is a below average passer, Billups is average at best. Martin is no passer, and Deng isn't one either, so I'd want a distributor with those players.
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Old 06-13-2008, 08:43 PM   #12235
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

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Originally Posted by xorbie View Post
I'm not sure where we are disagreeing... I said there were few elite PG (like 6-7 most seem to think) whereas there are more "elite" or "very very good" bigs but that beyond that, the talent pool for PG was more consistent. You still have PG with solid careers taken in the 4th, 5th round. A lot of the PF/C taken are either defensive specialists or people who played no defense or people who did a lot of coke.
Not really disagreeing but when you say KJ, TH, Parker, etc. are incomplete or have issues so does everyone e/c Stockton and Magic ot me. And even Magic wasn't really complete b/c his D was average at best. I just think the next tier is pretty big, and I don't see much difference from KJ, TH, etc. from Deron, and couple of other late first round guys. Like there are 7 really sick gusy after that you have 10 guys who are pretty damn godo but not really distinct from each other.
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Old 06-13-2008, 08:45 PM   #12236
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

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Not really disagreeing but when you say KJ, TH, Parker, etc. are incomplete or have issues so does everyone e/c Stockton and Magic ot me. And even Magic wasn't really complete b/c his D was average at best
Right, where as you look at Shaq, KG, Duncan, Hakeem, the admiral and to a lesser degree guys like Webber, Brand, Bosh, they contribute on both ends of the court and do a lot of things well.
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Old 06-13-2008, 08:47 PM   #12237
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

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Right, where as you look at Shaq, KG, Duncan, Hakeem, the admiral and to a lesser degree guys like Webber, Brand, Bosh, they contribute on both ends of the court and do a lot of things well.
Of course for big man you want complete players and probally swing players s well but PGs, D is a luxury item.
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Old 06-13-2008, 08:49 PM   #12238
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

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Yeah 33-34% is fine, because at least opponents have to gamble to double off of him, I just thought it was silly to say he averaged .378 his first 3 seasons.
If you don't include his first season of just 1 minute, he did shoot exactly .378, 54 for 143. He took so few threes, approximately 60 in year 1 and 3 and 26 in year two, that I don't know that the year to year trends would be more accurate than just a simple three year average.
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Old 06-13-2008, 08:52 PM   #12239
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

we're not saying he was lying, we're saying it's intellectually dishonest. It's been said in quite a few broadcasts that the 3, specifically the corner 3, is something Bowen began to really focus on once he got in the league because he knew he had to offer at least SOMETHING offensively.

edit: I mean, why not include the 4th year where it drops to 35%?
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Old 06-13-2008, 09:15 PM   #12240
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

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Originally Posted by capone0 View Post
Well look at his team as well, McHale is a below average passer, Billups is average at best. Martin is no passer, and Deng isn't one either, so I'd want a distributor with those players.
Billups is def an above average passer, especially when u factor in all postions. Look at the Pistons, Billups is by far their best passer and their offense runs just fine.
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Old 06-13-2008, 09:17 PM   #12241
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

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Billups is def an above average passer, especially when u factor in all postions.
For PG he's pretty average, probally below for guys in this draft.
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Old 06-13-2008, 09:18 PM   #12242
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

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For PG he's pretty average, probally below for guys in this draft.
Ok I edited my post (u obv posted before the edit) but Billups is by far the best passer on the Pistons and their offense runs just fine (and my offense is by far better than the current pistons)
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Old 06-13-2008, 09:20 PM   #12243
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

Those Posey links are great - what is his beef with the Bulls exactly?

D
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Old 06-13-2008, 09:21 PM   #12244
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

I don't think the Pistons O is that great, it's their D that keeps them in the hunt. Billups is a very good defender and a very good scorer I just think with the guys you have you could have used a better passer.
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Old 06-13-2008, 09:22 PM   #12245
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

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Originally Posted by capone0 View Post
I don't think the Pistons O is that great, it's their D that keeps them in the hunt. Billups is a very good defender and a very good scorer I just think with the guys you have you could have used a better passer.
I think Billups is a easily a good enough passer to get the job done but whatever, and like I said my offense is far better than the Pistons anyway and my defense will be better by the end as well

Last edited by EPiPeN11; 06-13-2008 at 09:28 PM.
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Old 06-13-2008, 09:24 PM   #12246
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

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Originally Posted by kidcolin View Post
we're not saying he was lying, we're saying it's intellectually dishonest. It's been said in quite a few broadcasts that the 3, specifically the corner 3, is something Bowen began to really focus on once he got in the league because he knew he had to offer at least SOMETHING offensively.

edit: I mean, why not include the 4th year where it drops to 35%?
Feel free to include the 4th year. My only point was that he was at least a decent 3PT shooter from the get-go, and the numbers do bear that out. And calling the presentation of facts in a manner that is the most favorable to you side intellectual dishonesty is a bit harsh, imo.
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Old 06-13-2008, 09:25 PM   #12247
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

KC - Nice writeup.

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Originally Posted by cowboy2579 View Post
Thoughts on my usage % arguement? I really do think that its a good metric of the offensive chemistry that our teams will have.

I thought of it awhile ago, but I wanted to wait until I had my starting 5 to trot it out.
I think this is good, chemistry suffers when there is an overabundance of chucking, and offense stalls when no one wants to take the shot. ideally you shoot for just beyond 100% so that the arguments of "greater efficiency" creep in, I think going w/ a unit with a less than 100% usage is a mistake...

AF - maybe bball at 7, KBFC is driving in, lets wait for him to arrive so we can play with him.
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Old 06-13-2008, 09:41 PM   #12248
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

Just curious: what does everyone think of my pick, Nick Anderson?
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Old 06-13-2008, 09:43 PM   #12249
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

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Just curious: what does everyone think of my pick, Nick Anderson?
I don't recall Anderson being a good defender like you claim although I could be wrong.

edit: his 3pt shooting is also worse than I thought too
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Old 06-13-2008, 09:45 PM   #12250
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

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Just curious: what does everyone think of my pick, Nick Anderson?
I think he's not a poor pick, but I wouldn't be thrilled if I was forced to start him.
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