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Old 06-13-2008, 07:10 PM   #12201
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

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Originally Posted by Franchise 60 View Post
We are talking about in this draft, how can he build his resume?
He can't, this is why CP3 was picked too early.
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Old 06-13-2008, 07:12 PM   #12202
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

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Originally Posted by Jack of Arcades View Post
Have you read the thread at all? When people talk about stats they don't mean ppg.

they mean ts% ldo
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Old 06-13-2008, 07:13 PM   #12203
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

So Lebron was picked to early?

I agree he was picked early, but thats only because Stockton was still on the board. He is easily top 25.
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Old 06-13-2008, 07:14 PM   #12204
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

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they mean ts% ldo
I actually mean just about every stat including TS%. PPG, PER, DRTG, ORTG, APG, RPG, etc. etc. etc. I guess if they had a leadership stat or a friend with Kobe stat he'd be a 10/10.
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Old 06-13-2008, 07:15 PM   #12205
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

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Originally Posted by Franchise 60 View Post
So Lebron was picked to early?

I agree he was picked early, but thats only because Stockton was still on the board. He is easily top 25.
I don't think LBJ was picked early. I think CP3 could have gone right after Stockton. I guess I could have picked DH right after Ewing but I wanted Shaq Jr.
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Old 06-13-2008, 07:17 PM   #12206
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

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Originally Posted by Franchise 60 View Post
We are talking about in this draft, how can he build his resume?
careerbuilder.com
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Old 06-13-2008, 07:18 PM   #12207
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

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Originally Posted by Victor View Post
they mean ts% ldo
Ya people on here use ts% wayyyyyyy too much.

I will tell you how ts% is useful, its useful for guys who have the ball in their hands and create their own shots.

I will tell you how ts% is NOT useful, its for players like Bowen who just spot up and shoot 3's. (3pt percentage is more useful than ts% for these players).
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Old 06-13-2008, 07:19 PM   #12208
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

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Originally Posted by Franchise 60 View Post
So Lebron was picked to early?

I agree he was picked early, but thats only because Stockton was still on the board. He is easily top 25.
LeBron is tricky. I would take Magic Johnson ahead of LBJ. I think Hakeem over LBJ as well. However, LBJ has had an amazing amount of hype ever since he was in high school and he has exceeded all expectations. He has more experience than CP3 (longer sample size) and he has taken a lottery team (by lottery team I don't just mean narrowly missing the playoffs) to the NBA finals.
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Old 06-13-2008, 07:21 PM   #12209
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

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Originally Posted by capone0 View Post
I don't think Isiah is that elite imo, he's in the next tier for me and was picked, way, way too early. Kidd, Payton >>>> Isiah to me.
From body of work, maybe, but at 24 Isiah was coming off a 21/14 season and playing at a level those other guys won't achieve for a while. Looking back, I do wish I'd built a team with more longevity, but claiming that Kidd and Payton are sooooo much better than Isiah, when they won't be near his level for several seasons is showing bias and hating just to hate.
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Old 06-13-2008, 07:28 PM   #12210
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

Van Exel, I'm fascinated by your avatar what is it?
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Old 06-13-2008, 07:32 PM   #12211
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

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From body of work, maybe, but at 24 Isiah was coming off a 21/14 season and playing at a level those other guys won't achieve for a while. Looking back, I do wish I'd built a team with more longevity, but claiming that Kidd and Payton are sooooo much better than Isiah, when they won't be near his level for several seasons is showing bias and hating just to hate.
His 23 year old season was f-in sick, there is no doubt. Just think Payton and Kidd's careers trump him pretty hard especially since they have longetivity and they played great D. Thomas is probally a better pure passer than Payton and equivalent of Kidd I just think they had much better careers. I definitely exagerrated that Kidd, Payton >>> Thomas, but I think they are better.
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Old 06-13-2008, 07:38 PM   #12212
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

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Originally Posted by EPiPeN11 View Post
Ya people on here use ts% wayyyyyyy too much.

I will tell you how ts% is useful, its useful for guys who have the ball in their hands and create their own shots.

I will tell you how ts% is NOT useful, its for players like Bowen who just spot up and shoot 3's. (3pt percentage is more useful than ts% for these players).
If a guy did nothing but spot up and shoot 3s at a high percentage he would have a very good true shooting percentage. A guy with a 36% 3pt shooting would mean he'd have a ts% of .540, which is a little above average for most years. The problem is Bowen does more than shoot 3s. He takes as many non-3s as 3s and he can't make a free throw.
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Old 06-13-2008, 07:38 PM   #12213
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

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Originally Posted by capone0 View Post
His 23 year old season was f-in sick, there is no doubt. Just think Payton and Kidd's careers trump him pretty hard especially since they have longetivity and they played great D. Thomas is probally a better pure passer than Payton and equivalent of Kidd I just think they had much better careers. I definitely exagerrated that Kidd, Payton >>> Thomas, but I think they are better.
Thomas got 2 rings....
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Old 06-13-2008, 07:40 PM   #12214
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

It's rare that people go to the rings! argument so clearly and blatantly.
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Old 06-13-2008, 07:44 PM   #12215
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

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Originally Posted by Jack of Arcades View Post
If a guy did nothing but spot up and shoot 3s at a high percentage he would have a very good true shooting percentage. A guy with a 36% 3pt shooting would mean he'd have a ts% of .540, which is a little above average for most years. The problem is Bowen does more than shoot 3s. He takes as many non-3s as 3s and he can't make a free throw.
ok fair enough although Bowen rarley takes ft's
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Old 06-13-2008, 07:56 PM   #12216
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

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Originally Posted by kidcolin View Post
careerbuilder.com
No love for this? Good one kc.

D
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Old 06-13-2008, 08:04 PM   #12217
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

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Originally Posted by fanmail View Post
Very nice pick, I was considering Bowen here, thats a tough team.
I was praying Bowen would fall to me....like the pick a lot.
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Old 06-13-2008, 08:07 PM   #12218
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

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I disagree. It's not like Bowen's skillset all of a sudden changed when he was 30. He has an extremely unusual skillset for an NBA player - do you really find it that surprising that Rick Pitino didn't utilize him optimally?
I agree with this.


Quote:
Originally Posted by sergsz View Post
Obviously it will be up to each voter to decide these things, but a lot of it depends on how logical a case the owner can make for his players. I feel that the argument for Nash and Bowen is a lot more persuasive than the argument for someone like Tarpley or Marburry.

Let me elaborate a little here. With a player like Tarpley, the main issues are injuries / addiction. Whether these things are genetically or environmentally determined, the propensities are pretty much set in stone by the time you get the player at 24, so you can't expect him to be much healthier or better-behaved than he was in real life.

With Marbury, the argument that HSP made was that it was all a matter of fit and coaching. This argument has potential, since that is not a part of the player's inherent makeup. However, this argument doesn not work well for Marbury because he never performed well as a leader of a team no matter what setting he was in. Is there a hypothetical setting where Marbury could have blossomed? Maybe, but the evidence is lacking, so the argument is a bit of a stretch (or, for the probabilistically-minded, you can assume that there is a small % that Marbury actually blossoms in this league, but most likely he will play the way he did in the NBA).

For Nash and Bowen, the issue is also fit / coaching (coaching in the sense of how the player was utilized). But in these cases, you have very convincing real life examples that the player could thrive in the right system. You have to decide what is more likely - that they player developed new skills late in his career (extremely unusual), or that the change in performance / playing time was the result of being properly utilized and being in the right system (seems a lot more likely). This is why I think that it's OK to assume similar career arcs to real life for most players, but that Bowen and Nash are valid exceptions.
and this.
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Old 06-13-2008, 08:13 PM   #12219
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

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Originally Posted by flyingmoose View Post
Of course it's weird to average two mediocre-bad years with an exceptional year. You're clearly trying to cover up his early mediocrity by lumping it in with a peak season.

While we're using a bigger sample size to avoid variance how about including the following season when he drops back down to .336 taking 300 attempts.
But if Bowen can hit the 3 at just 33% then that still makes him someone you can't leave wide open on offense, and we all know thats all we want from Bowen on offense as his value comes from his D.
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Old 06-13-2008, 08:16 PM   #12220
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

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Originally Posted by BobboFitos View Post
and a 3-4-5 of Bowen/Ruland/Deke HAS to be the best defensive 3-4-5 in the league (right?)
You may be right, but I think that Duncan/AK47/McCray are very much in the disucssion at least.


P.S. Basketball at 7 tonight?
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Old 06-13-2008, 08:17 PM   #12221
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

Thoughts on my usage % arguement? I really do think that its a good metric of the offensive chemistry that our teams will have.

I thought of it awhile ago, but I wanted to wait until I had my starting 5 to trot it out.
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Old 06-13-2008, 08:18 PM   #12222
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

Round 5 Recap

1. Juwan Howard, PF (Steroid Boy)
2. Rony Seikaly, C (tdarko)
3. Fat Lever, PG (horizon)
4. Luol Deng, SF/SG (ePeen)
5. Caron Butler, SF (ClarkSizzleMyNizzle)
6. Rodney McCray, SF (Assani)
7. David West, PF (BiiiiiiiiiigChips)
8. AC Green, PF (JoA)
9. Ricky Pierce, SG (kidcolin)
10. Kirk Hinrich, PG (Alex)
11. Theo Ratliff, PF/C (Shark Doctor)
12. Mehmet Okur, PF/C (LurchySoprano)
13. Leandro Barbosa, SG/PG (HighStakesPro)
14. Latrell Sprewell, SG (Franchise)
15. Danny Manning, PF (flyingmoose)
16. James Donaldson, C (nath)
17. Clifford Robinson, PF/C (capone0)
18. Larry Smith, PF (Dudd)
19. Hedo Turkoglu, SF/PF (FaDi)
20. Ralph Sampson, PF/C (BJLTNYK)
21. Paul Pressey, SG/SF (RUFFNECK)
22. Andrew Bogut, C (Victor)
23. Rajon Rondo, PG (Nicholas)
24. Brian Grant, PF (Dr Zoidberg)
25. Nick Van Exel, PG (battschr)
26. James Posey, SF/SG (tbach)
27. Johnny Moore, PG (MEbenhoe)
28. Cedric Ceballos, SF (Dudd)
29. Gerald Wallace, SF (NopairParker)
30. Kurt Thomas, PF (SammyKid)
31. Byron Scott, SG (fanmail)
32. Danny Ainge, SG (Bobbo)
33. Doc Rivers, PG (tbach)
34. Kelly Tripucka, SG/SF (van_exel_fan)
35. Jeff Ruland, C/PF (sergsz)
36. Derrick McKey, SF/PF (JoA)
37. Reggie Lewis, SF (BigCat)
38. Christian Laettner, PF (mmbt0ne)
39. Nate McMillan, SG (GKA)
40. Kenny Smith, PG/SG (KLJ)



Teams So Far

1 Steroid Boy - Michael Jordan, Marcus Camby, Josh Smith, Juwan Howard
2 BobboFitos - Shaq, Eddie Jones, Derrick Coleman, Terrell Brandon, Danny Ainge
3 horizon - LeBron James, Horace Grant, Drazen Petrovic, Emeka Okafor, Fat Lever
4 RUFFNECK - Magic Johnson, Micheal Redd, Hot Rod Williams, Shareef Abdur-Rahim, Paul Pressey
5 kidcolin - Larry Bird, Vlade Divac, Sam Cassell, Dale Davis, Ricky Pierce
6 Assani Fisher - Tim Duncan, Penny Hardaway, Andrei Kirilenko, Derek Harper, Rodney McCray
7 BiiiigChips - Hakeem Olajuwon, Glen Rice, Lamar Odom, Rod Strickland, David West
8 Jack of Arcades - David Robinson, Terry Porter, Mark Aguirre, AC Green
9 Seadood228 - Kevin Garnett, Bill Laimbeer, Jeff Hornacek, Mike Miller
10 Alex - Kobe Bryant, Big Al Jefferson, Rashard Lewis, Samuel Dalembert, Kirk Hinrich
11 SHARK DOCTOR - Chris Paul, Terry Cummings, Rip Hamilton, Gin Baker, Theo Ratliff
12 LurchySoprano - Karl Malone, Alvin Robertson, Antawn Jamison, Mark Jackson, Mehmet Okur
13 HighStakesPro - Charles Barkley, Stephon Marbury, Kevin Willis, Tony Toni Tone Kukoc, Leandro Barbosa
14 Franchise 60 - John Stockton, Chris Mullin, Charles Oakley, Zydrunas Ilgauskas, Latrell Sprewell
15 flyingmoose - Isiah Thomas, Jermaine O'Neal, Richard Jefferson, Brandon Roy, LaMarcus Aldridge, Danny Manning
16 nath - Dirk Nowitzki, Carlos Boozer, Jose Calderon, James Donaldson
17 capone0 - Dwight Howard, Tim Hardaway, Andre Iguodala, Steve Smith, Clifford Robinson
18 ClarkNasty - Patrick Ewing, Larry Nance, Mookie Blaylock, Allan Houston, Caron Butler
19 FaDi - Clyde Drexler, Peja Stojakovic, Brad Miller, PJ Brown, Hedo Turkoglu
20 BJLTNYK - Jason Kidd, Mitch Richmond, Al Horford, Corey Maggette, Ralph Sampson
21 EPiPeN11 - Kevin McHale, Chauncey Billups, Kevin Martin, Luol Deng
22 Victor - Amare Stoudamire, Mark Price, Tayshaun Prince, Ron Harper, Andrew Bogut
23 Nicholasp27 - Alonzo Mourning, Buck Williams, Joe Johnson. Jason Richardson, Rajon Rondo
24 Dr. Zoidberg - Dominique Wilkins, Kevin Johnson, Andris Biedrins, Brent Mother****ing Barry, Brian Grant
25 battschr - Scottie Pippen, Brad Daugherty, Dale Ellis, Chris Kaman, Nick Van Exel
26 cowboy2579 - Gary Payton, Rasheed Wallace, Tyson Chandler, Larry Johnson
27 mmbt0ne - Steve Nash, Manu Ginobili, Anthony Mason, Doug Christie, Christian Laettner
28 Dudd - Tracy McGrady, Tony Parker, Hersey Hawkins, Bill Cartwright, Cedric Ceballos
29 NopairParker - Dwyane Wade, Andrew Bynum, Tom Chambers, Monta Ellis, Gerald Wallace
30 SammyKid11 - Yao Ming, Carmelo Anthony, Michael Finley, Mike Bibby, Kurt Thomas
31 fanmail - Allen Iverson, Ben Wallace, Otis Thorpe, Danny Granger, Byron Scott
32 tdarko - Shawn Marion, Deron Williams, Shane Battier, Calvin "Who?" Natt, Rony Seikaly
33 tbach - Grant Hill, Shawn Kemp, Arvydis Sabonis, Kevin Durant, James Posey
34 van_exel_fan - Reggie Miller, Dennis Rodman, Ron Artest, Sam Perkins, Kelly Tripucka
35 sergsz - Dikembe Mutombo, Gilbert Arenas, Detlef Schrempf, Rudy Gay, Jeff Ruland
36 AC-Cobra - Chris Webber, Joe Dumars, Rolando Blackman, Rik Smits, Josh Howard
37 Big Cat - James Worthy, Chris Bosh, Baron Davis, Jerry Stackhouse, Reggie Lewis
38 MEbenhoe - Elton Brand, Jesus Shuttlesworth, Kiki Vandeweghe, Rick Mahorn, Johnny Moore
39 GreenKoolAid - Paul Pierce, Pau Gasol, Andre Miller, Kenyon Martin, Nate McMillan
40 KLJ - Vince Carter, Sid Moncrief, Antonio McDyess, Mark Eaton, Kenny Smith
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Old 06-13-2008, 08:21 PM   #12223
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

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Originally Posted by Assani Fisher View Post
But if Bowen can hit the 3 at just 33% then that still makes him someone you can't leave wide open on offense, and we all know thats all we want from Bowen on offense as his value comes from his D.
Yeah 33-34% is fine, because at least opponents have to gamble to double off of him, I just thought it was silly to say he averaged .378 his first 3 seasons.
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Old 06-13-2008, 08:23 PM   #12224
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

Quote:
Originally Posted by capone0 View Post
I don't think Isiah is that elite imo, he's in the next tier for me and was picked, way, way too early. Kidd, Payton >>>> Isiah to me.
+1

I'd go:

Tier 1
1. Magic
2. Stockton

Tier 2
3. CP3
4. Payton
5. Kidd
6. Nash
7. Zeke

Tier 3
8. Deron
9. Chauncey
10. KJ
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Old 06-13-2008, 08:28 PM   #12225
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

Quote:
Originally Posted by van_exel_fan View Post
CP3 is absolutely fantastic, and as he builds his resume he will move up in tiers.
I disagree with this line of thought. Basically here is how I think we should be ranking players for this draft:

Take two players, lets say CP3 and Payton for example.


Pretend that 15 years from now you are sitting down at your computer and rating which of those two was better to have on your team for their careers.

Now pretend that someone right now offers you an even money bet on which of the two you will pick as better 15 years from now. Which one do you take?
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