Two Plus Two Publishing LLC Two Plus Two Publishing LLC
 

Go Back   Two Plus Two Poker Forums > >

Sporting Events Discussion centered around sporting events.

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 06-13-2008, 06:19 PM   #12176
van_exel_fan
grinder
 
van_exel_fan's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: witness protection
Posts: 539
Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

Quote:
Originally Posted by capone0 View Post
I guess you need a PG, but Fisher's stats are pretty marginal throughout his career. The last couple of picks kinda picked up the last slate of good ones left but I think there are better PGs available.
Fisher is an excellent defender. He has excellent leadership skills and has great character. Given my roster I need a guy like this. Going by stats alone is not smart. If you have a starting lineup with all guys who score 20+ per game, someone is going to have to adjust to a lesser role, not be the go-to guy. This is a transition that many good players have difficulty doing. Look at the poor results of the US Basketball Team.

There are PGs left with pretty good numbers, but they don't have the same D or leadership. (my pick was going to be McMillan) Also, some of the PGs left have major issues (no D, size, character, etc.). Fisher has these and he also has championship experience and understanding of the game. The other guys do not.
van_exel_fan is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-13-2008, 06:25 PM   #12177
Jack of Arcades
Jumbo Jack
 
Jack of Arcades's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: The Bastion
Posts: 23,569
Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

Quote:
Originally Posted by van_exel_fan View Post
Fisher is an excellent defender. He has excellent leadership skills and has great character. Given my roster I need a guy like this. Going by stats alone is not smart. If you have a starting lineup with all guys who score 20+ per game, someone is going to have to adjust to a lesser role, not be the go-to guy. This is a transition that many good players have difficulty doing. Look at the poor results of the US Basketball Team.

There are PGs left with pretty good numbers, but they don't have the same D or leadership. (my pick was going to be McMillan) Also, some of the PGs left have major issues (no D, size, character, etc.). Fisher has these and he also has championship experience and understanding of the game. The other guys do not.
Have you read the thread at all? When people talk about stats they don't mean ppg.
Jack of Arcades is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-13-2008, 06:26 PM   #12178
capone0
Carpal \'Tunnel
 
capone0's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: Philly
Posts: 43,034
Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

I mean he's really not a good PG and more of a combo guard. His ass% is really low for a pg. He's a marginal defender at best and his metrics show that. I could careless if he can score but if your looking for a passer there are better guys left imo, I agree you don't need a scorer, but I don't think you need what Derek Fisher brings as well. Just my opinion. Also with Dennis and Ron you don't really need to worry about D that much.

Your team consists of two really good scorers in Tripucka and Miller. 2 excellent defenders in Ron and Dennis, 1 of which steals well the other which rebounds the best in the draft imo and then you have Sam who is a decent but nothing special guy in the middle. Derek is a good player but I think there are better players for your team that would be pass first guys. Nobody on your team now is an above average passer.
capone0 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-13-2008, 06:27 PM   #12179
BobboFitos
Carpal \'Tunnel
 
BobboFitos's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: Cambridge, MA
Posts: 72,764
Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

Man I love seeing picks! PIX PIX PIX! When Cowboy picks I can make mine. I'm excited to give my thoughts, will read through everyone else's comments, but for now:

Sleepy Floyd
Awesome name for a player. For the record, your team is:
PG Floyd
SG Dumars
SF Howard
PF Webber
C Smits
w/ Blackman off the bench, I think. Right?

Sleepy was on my list but there were a few major problems with him. He's the prototypical tweener type "combo" guard. He's only 6'3 so plugging him at SG isn't great (esp. as his outside shot was less than average) and he wasn't a good enough to passer to play the PG spot (his A/T is a brutal ~2:1 career wise). SO... Not sure where he will find the mins. Also, he wasn't that good defensively - i wouldn't say "bad" but he had 1.2 spg vs 2.1 pf, but a 110 DRtg which isn't so solid. The main thing is he gets to the line and shoots a very high % (almost 5 a game per 36 @ 81.5%) which is nice.

In terms of fit, again, not sure if you have minutes for him. Just seems like a backup big made more sense, since Dumars can play a TON of minutes, but Smits cannot. (FWIW, for the efficiency nits amongst us, at 24 sleepy had a .514 TS and 24.6% usage - yuck! He shot a ton w/ below average success!)

Bruce Bowen
We all knew about him but no one wanted to mention him. I was hoping he'd fall for obvious reasons. That said, the big knock on him is he played 1 game as a 25 yr old (he sucked then) and then 61, 30, 69. He had an amazing streak of longevity (missed a game this year due to a suspension) so he's clearly very durable, it's just that it takes a while for him to get to THAT level.
I think at this point he's good value, and a 3-4-5 of Bowen/Ruland/Deke HAS to be the best defensive 3-4-5 in the league (right?) but the 24 yr old rule hurts him the most. Also, fwiw, Bowen barely shoots, but tends to make the most of that 3pt spot. Essentially, you get one of the best (if not THE best) defensive wingmen who can hit the open 3, is incredibly durable, and doesn't really do anything negative (ie. turnovers or fouls) but you dont GET this for a while. Will be interesting to see how people rule this.

Derek Fisher
I love him as a team guy. Everyone loves playing with him. A "clutch" player. I actually have a bunch of PGs that are better, but in the right system he's key. Not really a good passer, but a good shooter that on a team w/ a dominant 2 or 3 functions great as a running mate. Problem though - Van Exel's team is going to have trouble scoring. Looks like he's starting Derek/Miller in the backcourt and Artest, Rodman, Perkins in the frontcourt w/ Tripucka off the bench... Does show how valuable Tripucka is to this team, he's going to need that offense every game. Meh, I think this is a vanilla pick. Solid value, but there are better, and I don't love the fit.
BobboFitos is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-13-2008, 06:28 PM   #12180
capone0
Carpal \'Tunnel
 
capone0's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: Philly
Posts: 43,034
Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

Fisher's PER is low 12.6 including 9.6 at 25 years old. His TS% for his career is 51.6% which is slightly low but nothing special. His DRTG is average at best. Assist % is 19.1 which is really low for a point guard you could make a case it's b/c of the triangle but in Utah and Golden State it was also low. For a PG, A/36 is only 4.5, as I was saying there are better. You want a character guy then so be it. But you get him at 24, he won't have the championship experience then.
capone0 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-13-2008, 06:31 PM   #12181
van_exel_fan
grinder
 
van_exel_fan's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: witness protection
Posts: 539
Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jack of Arcades View Post
Have you read the thread at all? When people talk about stats they don't mean ppg.
Yeah sorry I'm a complete idiot. I think of every player's worth as whether or not they had a high PPG.
van_exel_fan is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-13-2008, 06:33 PM   #12182
Jack of Arcades
Jumbo Jack
 
Jack of Arcades's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: The Bastion
Posts: 23,569
Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

Quote:
Originally Posted by van_exel_fan View Post
Yeah sorry I'm a complete idiot. I think of every player's worth as whether or not they had a high PPG.
wtf?
Jack of Arcades is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-13-2008, 06:34 PM   #12183
D104
Carpal \'Tunnel
 
D104's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: In a better place.
Posts: 18,272
Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

sergsz -

I now officially hate your team.

D

PS Die Bruce Bowen

Last edited by D104; 06-13-2008 at 06:41 PM. Reason: I don't really hate your team, just BB. May he DIAGF.
D104 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-13-2008, 06:34 PM   #12184
van_exel_fan
grinder
 
van_exel_fan's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: witness protection
Posts: 539
Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

Quote:
Originally Posted by capone0 View Post
Fisher's PER is low 12.6 including 9.6 at 25 years old. His TS% for his career is 51.6% which is slightly low but nothing special. His DRTG is average at best. Assist % is 19.1 which is really low for a point guard you could make a case it's b/c of the triangle but in Utah and Golden State it was also low. For a PG, A/36 is only 4.5, as I was saying there are better. You want a character guy then so be it. But you get him at 24, he won't have the championship experience then.
That's interesting. This is an excellent example of a time when numbers don't properly quantify a player's value to a team.
van_exel_fan is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-13-2008, 06:38 PM   #12185
capone0
Carpal \'Tunnel
 
capone0's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: Philly
Posts: 43,034
Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

So what's quantifying that he is a good player? That Kobe loves him or that he played last night? His stats really aren't that much better in the playoffs either. I just think he's pretty marginal. He isn't the anywhere near the 207th best player in the draft.
capone0 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-13-2008, 06:49 PM   #12186
van_exel_fan
grinder
 
van_exel_fan's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: witness protection
Posts: 539
Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

Quote:
Originally Posted by capone0 View Post
So what's quantifying that he is a good player? That Kobe loves him or that he played last night? His stats really aren't that much better in the playoffs either. I just think he's pretty marginal. He isn't the anywhere near the 207th best player in the draft.

Depends how you define best players. I know who is available in this draft and Fisher is the guy that I wanted. Fisher has a high basketball IQ and I need a guy like him in my lineup. That's about it.
van_exel_fan is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-13-2008, 06:51 PM   #12187
Franchise 60
deliciously angry
 
Franchise 60's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: Ferocious, isn't he?
Posts: 42,744
Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

Quote:
Originally Posted by xorbie View Post
I think the elite PF/C goes a lot deeper than elite PG (really after Deron Williams went I think its a significant drop off, and there weren't a lot of PG taken before him). But, there's a large pool of decent PG, that goes all the way down to Cassell, Doc, Sleepy, etc and there are still a few good PG that haven't been drafted. The big men drafted in these rounds were not as good IMO, much more flaws or more limited players.
Quote:
Originally Posted by capone0 View Post
You don't think Kevin Johnson is elite? You don't think Hardaway or Price are elite, I don't think there is that much gap between them and Billups or Deron especially since Deron has 2 elite years only while Tim and KJ had 5 in their career.

Who are the elite PGs of this draft?

Magic
Stockton
Paul
Thomas
Kidd
Payton
Nash
Billups
Deron
KJ
Price
Parker
Tim H
Andre Miller
Baron Davis

These are the first 15 pure points taken. If you want to count AI, Wade, Gilbert, Dumars as PGs, so be it. To me there all combos.

Then you have big men:

Shaq
TD
Hakeem
David
KG
KM
Barkley
Dirk
Dwight
Patrick
Kevin
Amare
Zo
Ming
Mutombo
Webber
Brand
I don't think Price, Hardaway, and KJ are elite for this draft. People throw the word elite around way to much.

The Elite PG's in this imo are Magic, Stockton, CP3, Payton and maybe Kidd and Isiah.

I don't think think this is a knock on guys like Price, KJ, Deron, Chauncey. They just aren't on the top top level, still all good picks though.
Franchise 60 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-13-2008, 06:52 PM   #12188
BobboFitos
Carpal \'Tunnel
 
BobboFitos's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: Cambridge, MA
Posts: 72,764
Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

Quote:
Originally Posted by capone0 View Post
So what's quantifying that he is a good player? That Kobe loves him or that he played last night? His stats really aren't that much better in the playoffs either. I just think he's pretty marginal. He isn't the anywhere near the 207th best player in the draft.
Hard to disagree with this.

That said, if there is a player that was looked in isolation and you discounted intangibles, Fisher would be hurt the most. He performs well in every other checkbox:
Durability/longevity, "clutch factor," sportsmanship. That said, purely on a statistical value, he is certainly not the 207th best pick. (FWIW I wanted him as my backup PG... but I wanted him in 2 rounds, around ~300th mark)
BobboFitos is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-13-2008, 06:54 PM   #12189
BobboFitos
Carpal \'Tunnel
 
BobboFitos's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: Cambridge, MA
Posts: 72,764
Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

Quote:
Originally Posted by Franchise 60 View Post
I don't think Price, Hardaway, and KJ are elite for this draft. People throw the word elite around way to much.

The Elite PG's in this imo are Magic, Stockton, CP3, Payton and maybe Kidd and Isiah.

I don't think think this is a knock on guys like Price, KJ, Deron, Chauncey. They just aren't on the top top level, still all good picks though.
I do agree people toss "elite" out too much, but, I don't see how you can say Kidd was "maybe" elite. Magic, Stock, CP3, the Glove, Kidd are your top 5. Isiah, Chauncey, etc. go next.
BobboFitos is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-13-2008, 06:58 PM   #12190
van_exel_fan
grinder
 
van_exel_fan's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: witness protection
Posts: 539
Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

Quote:
Originally Posted by BobboFitos View Post
Hard to disagree with this.

That said, if there is a player that was looked in isolation and you discounted intangibles, Fisher would be hurt the most. He performs well in every other checkbox:
Durability/longevity, "clutch factor," sportsmanship. That said, purely on a statistical value, he is certainly not the 207th best pick. (FWIW I wanted him as my backup PG... but I wanted him in 2 rounds, around ~300th mark)
I hate being a pick apologist, but I think you guys underrate Fisher's intangibles. Also, I promise that anybody who is still picking based on BPA will not end up with a solid team. Stop trying to make me look like I made a foolish, hasty pick. It's not like I went to basketball-reference immediately after my pick and said, "****, I should have picked xxxxx xxxxxxxxxxx."
van_exel_fan is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-13-2008, 06:58 PM   #12191
Franchise 60
deliciously angry
 
Franchise 60's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: Ferocious, isn't he?
Posts: 42,744
Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

Quote:
Originally Posted by BobboFitos View Post
I do agree people toss "elite" out too much, but, I don't see how you can say Kidd was "maybe" elite. Magic, Stock, CP3, the Glove, Kidd are your top 5. Isiah, Chauncey, etc. go next.
Yea thats fine. I'd prolly put it like this:

Elite tier 1: Magic, Stockton, CP3
Elite tier 2: Payton, Kidd, Isiah

And then I think there is a pretty solid gap between the next tier.
Franchise 60 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-13-2008, 06:59 PM   #12192
capone0
Carpal \'Tunnel
 
capone0's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: Philly
Posts: 43,034
Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

Quote:
Originally Posted by Franchise 60 View Post
I don't think Price, Hardaway, and KJ are elite for this draft. People throw the word elite around way to much.

The Elite PG's in this imo are Magic, Stockton, CP3, Payton and maybe Kidd and Isiah.

I don't think think this is a knock on guys like Price, KJ, Deron, Chauncey. They just aren't on the top top level, still all good picks though.
Are quantified this later but xorbie said complete PGs, there aren't that many complete PGs in the draft. I listed the top 15 picked, I just don't think Deron, Billups and a list of others are elite either they are incomplete. Magic isnt' complete but he's a guy I'd definitely put in my top 5 easy though. Completeness shouldn't mean a guy isn't elite or not. I agree that those are the elite PGs and the rest aren't that close. The Derons, KJ, etc. are in the next tier, I think there are only 5 or so elite level pgs as well.
capone0 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-13-2008, 07:00 PM   #12193
BobboFitos
Carpal \'Tunnel
 
BobboFitos's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: Cambridge, MA
Posts: 72,764
Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

Quote:
Originally Posted by Franchise 60 View Post
Yea thats fine. I'd prolly put it like this:

Elite tier 1: Magic, Stockton, CP3
Elite tier 2: Payton, Kidd, Isiah

And then I think there is a pretty solid gap between the next tier.
I'm not sure I'd put CP3 over Payton yet. But yeah whatever, those guys have earned their dues as being elite!

And cowboy plzzz pick
BobboFitos is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-13-2008, 07:01 PM   #12194
capone0
Carpal \'Tunnel
 
capone0's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: Philly
Posts: 43,034
Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

Quote:
Originally Posted by Franchise 60 View Post
Yea thats fine. I'd prolly put it like this:

Elite tier 1: Magic, Stockton, CP3
Elite tier 2: Payton, Kidd, Isiah

And then I think there is a pretty solid gap between the next tier.
I don't think Isiah is that elite imo, he's in the next tier for me and was picked, way, way too early. Kidd, Payton >>>> Isiah to me.
capone0 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-13-2008, 07:01 PM   #12195
kidcolin
Carpal \'Tunnel
 
kidcolin's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: thank god for the hatchery
Posts: 108,763
Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

Nash > Isiah
kidcolin is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-13-2008, 07:03 PM   #12196
Franchise 60
deliciously angry
 
Franchise 60's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: Ferocious, isn't he?
Posts: 42,744
Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

Quote:
Originally Posted by BobboFitos View Post
I'm not sure I'd put CP3 over Payton yet. But yeah whatever, those guys have earned their dues as being elite!

And cowboy plzzz pick
Yea I just didn't feel like getting into the Stockton/CP3 debate lol. You could put just Magic and Stockton in their own tier and then CP3 with Glove at the top of the 2nd elite tier. But I'm biased so whatev.
Franchise 60 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-13-2008, 07:04 PM   #12197
van_exel_fan
grinder
 
van_exel_fan's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: witness protection
Posts: 539
Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

Quote:
Originally Posted by Franchise 60 View Post
Yea thats fine. I'd prolly put it like this:

Elite tier 1: Magic, Stockton, CP3
Elite tier 2: Payton, Kidd, Isiah

And then I think there is a pretty solid gap between the next tier.
Guys who have not displayed greatness over an extended period of time and have never played for a championship cannot be listed in the same tier as the greatest of all-time in every facet.

Elite tier 1: Magic, Stockton
Elite tier 2: Payton, Kidd, Isiah
tier 3: CP3, Nash, etc.
van_exel_fan is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-13-2008, 07:06 PM   #12198
capone0
Carpal \'Tunnel
 
capone0's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: Philly
Posts: 43,034
Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

CP3 just had one of the sickest seasons ever for a PG, which definitely overrates him but at 22 which gives him a couple of extra seasons he is pretty damn sick.
capone0 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-13-2008, 07:08 PM   #12199
van_exel_fan
grinder
 
van_exel_fan's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: witness protection
Posts: 539
Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

Quote:
Originally Posted by capone0 View Post
CP3 just had one of the sickest seasons ever for a PG, which definitely overrates him but at 22 which gives him a couple of extra seasons he is pretty damn sick.
CP3 is absolutely fantastic, and as he builds his resume he will move up in tiers.
van_exel_fan is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-13-2008, 07:08 PM   #12200
Franchise 60
deliciously angry
 
Franchise 60's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: Ferocious, isn't he?
Posts: 42,744
Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

Quote:
Originally Posted by van_exel_fan View Post
CP3 is absolutely fantastic, and as he builds his resume he will move up in tiers.
We are talking about in this draft, how can he build his resume?
Franchise 60 is offline   Reply With Quote

Reply
      

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off


Forum Jump


All times are GMT -4. The time now is 03:23 AM.


Powered by vBulletin®
Copyright ©2000 - 2021, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Copyright © 2008-2020, Two Plus Two Interactive