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Old 06-12-2008, 01:02 AM   #12001
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

How can people bash Stackhouse and love JR Smith? Stack is/will always be a better scorer who brings much more to his team.
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Old 06-12-2008, 01:04 AM   #12002
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

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Originally Posted by Franchise 60 View Post

The best part is I actually like JR, and watched him throw down some sick dunks as a sophmore. But you guys are way overrating him.
You didn't read the posts I linked, and probably didn't watch the scouting vid, yet you feel that you can accurately comment on his game?
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Old 06-12-2008, 01:06 AM   #12003
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

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Originally Posted by tbach24 View Post
Yeah I don't really want to get into it, but if you don't think this was by far and away Kobe's best season, then I don't know what to say. Sure he put up tons of points before, but it was while everyone sat around and watched him.
"Never really got it together until this season" does not equal "Didn't play as well as he is now until this season."

And his assist numbers would disagree with your comments about everyone standing around watching him.
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Old 06-12-2008, 01:08 AM   #12004
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

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Originally Posted by mjw0586 View Post
How can people bash Stackhouse and love JR Smith? Stack is/will always be a better scorer who brings much more to his team.
Level? Stack is a career .535 TS with a .307 career three point average. That is less than the average team shoots as a whole. JR has averaged .592 and .395 over the past two seasons, significantly higher than his teammates and much higher than Stack.

Stack shoots a ton, and is less efficient than the players around him. That's going to hurt an efficient team more than it helps. JR is significantly more efficient and he does it on an inefficient squad. How does Stack bring much more to his team?
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Old 06-12-2008, 01:11 AM   #12005
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

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Originally Posted by mjw0586 View Post
How can people bash Stackhouse and love JR Smith? Stack is/will always be a better scorer who brings much more to his team.
Stackhouse career TS%: 52.5%
Smith career TS%: 54.7%(and improving every season)

edit: Seadood beat me to it.
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Old 06-12-2008, 01:12 AM   #12006
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

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How can people bash Stackhouse and love JR Smith? Stack is/will always be a better scorer who brings much more to his team.
Look at the numbers and then try to form a case for this statement. The only thing Stack has is that he played a lot more.
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Old 06-12-2008, 01:15 AM   #12007
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

lol, why do we even play bball when we can look at ts.
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Old 06-12-2008, 01:19 AM   #12008
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

There has been a lot of talk about the importance of 3 point shooting for your offense as a whole, and I forgot to mention that there is a great illustration of this at at 1:25 of this video.
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Old 06-12-2008, 01:24 AM   #12009
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

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Originally Posted by Seadood228 View Post
You didn't read the posts I linked, and probably didn't watch the scouting vid, yet you feel that you can accurately comment on his game?
I have watched and followed JR Smith a ton since he came into the league, yes I think I can accurately comment on his game.
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Old 06-12-2008, 01:26 AM   #12010
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

Stackhouse has played and will played more in his career because he's a much better player, plain and simple. Throw all the numbers out that you want, per 36 don't mean anything if you can't get on the court. How effective are you on the bench? Overall, offensively they aren't even close. JR Smith is an awful passer and he just doesn't have a good idea of spacing, running an offense, etc. Stackhouse is a much better passer, much better rebounder. And his IQ is higher than he gets credit for. Not to mention, he's not a liability defensively.
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Old 06-12-2008, 01:31 AM   #12011
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

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I have watched and followed JR Smith a ton since he came into the league, yes I think I can accurately comment on his game.
I don't think you've watched him enough lately then, evidenced by the fact that you weren't aware of his relationship with his coaches or the reason why he didn't get a lot of burn this year. Seriously, he was a much different player the second half of the season and in the playoffs. I know it's hard for people that are used to the old JR to understand this, but it's true and the numbers back it up.

Where are Nez and Chim when I need them?
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Old 06-12-2008, 01:35 AM   #12012
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

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I don't think you've watched him enough lately then, evidenced by the fact that you weren't aware of his relationship with his coaches or the reason why he didn't get a lot of burn this year. Seriously, he was a much different player the second half of the season and in the playoffs. I know it's hard for people that are used to the old JR to understand this, but it's true and the numbers back it up.

Where are Nez and Chim when I need them?
No I've watched him enough. The "you don't watch him or know" argument is weak and not going to work here sorry.

But you're right, a couple of months does warrant him being taken in the top of the 6th considering there is MUCH better players at his position available.
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Old 06-12-2008, 01:41 AM   #12013
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

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Originally Posted by Seadood228 View Post
I don't think you've watched him enough lately then, evidenced by the fact that you weren't aware of his relationship with his coaches or the reason why he didn't get a lot of burn this year. Seriously, he was a much different player the second half of the season and in the playoffs. I know it's hard for people that are used to the old JR to understand this, but it's true and the numbers back it up.

Where are Nez and Chim when I need them?
Not much more I can say.. you nailed it all.

Truth is he turned from a huge question mark.. totally inconsistent with a questionable attitude.. into a legit, very good player.

When he said (paraphrased) "I realized that Coach Karl is trying to help me, and the things he said was for my benefit.. and I made a mistake in taking them personal" he completely turned around.

Dude is completely legit and is going to be a star for years.
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Old 06-12-2008, 01:43 AM   #12014
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

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No I've watched him enough. The "you don't watch him or know" argument is weak and not going to work here sorry.
The argument is not weak when substantiated by evidence. You claim to have watched him a ton, yet your own admissions report otherwise. Labeling this as "you don't watch him or know" is the weak part.

Quote:
But you're right, a couple of months does warrant him being taken in the top of the 6th considering there is MUCH better players at his position available.
Whether or not it warrants a pick this high is inconsequential. I was merely stating that he has improved a lot throughout his whole career, particularly the last half of this season. Feel free to read into that however you want.
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Old 06-12-2008, 01:43 AM   #12015
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

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lol, why do we even play bball when we can look at ts.
How many games of Jerry Stackhouse and JR smith do you think people have watched?

JR Smith is kind of a rare scorer. He scores in bulk, he creates his own shot, *and* he does it very efficiently. There really aren't many guys who get the ball, look to score almost every time, and do it very well. Jerry Stackhouse is the same kind of guy except he's nowhere near as good at getting good looks for himself, and he can't hit it from long range. JR has ridiculous range, making him much tougher to guard.

Now, of course, JR has little value other than scoring. And while his scoring is pretty valuable, he's probably a below average player overall. However, I think he's a pretty valuable asset to have, especially in a limited role. On a bad offense (or a 2nd unit offense) he's a reliable first option.
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Old 06-12-2008, 01:44 AM   #12016
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

JR Smith has had sick stretches before and then reverted back to scary JR as well. I mean do you disagree with this?
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Old 06-12-2008, 01:45 AM   #12017
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

I like what JR has done lately, but it's not like the question mark is completely removed.
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Old 06-12-2008, 01:50 AM   #12018
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

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JR Smith has had sick stretches before and then reverted back to scary JR as well. I mean do you disagree with this?
I don't disagree at all. What's been different this time is that he's learned how to be a better basketball player in general. When he'd slump in the past, his old reaction was to try and shoot his way out of it ala Kobe (Kobe similarity TBach!). Now, he generally starts out driving and shoots once that's opened up. If the shooting isn't there, he will rarely force things. Also, he's gotten a lot better defensively and with his playmaking.

There were just a ton of times he did things on the court this year that made me smile. I can think of numerous occasions where you were certain he was going to jack up a 3, but instead he waited for numbers and took it to the rack or made a nice pass. JR two years ago didn't do that.

Because of all this, his variance has become much less significant.
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Old 06-12-2008, 01:51 AM   #12019
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

yesssssssssssssssss
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Old 06-12-2008, 01:52 AM   #12020
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

JR is a perfect 6th man, pick is maybe a reach but I think people consistently overrate the talent that will be available later. Getting a guy who is a good fit for your team (not convinced that JR is on that squad but whatever) is more important than getting BPA because the drop off in value from here to the 7th round isn't as crazy.

Also people continue to overrate the talent that will be left, I don't know how people keep throwing around the "tons of scoring" left. There's 1 guy I can think of right now that would be clearly better than JR Smith at his role (one man offense), but besides that he has the potential to be 6th man of the year. I didn't watch a lot of bball in the 80s so maybe there are better counterparts from that era, but honestly you are going to be getting very flawed or one dimensional players from here on out.
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Old 06-12-2008, 02:07 AM   #12021
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

Quote:
Originally Posted by mjw0586 View Post
Stackhouse has played and will played more in his career because he's a much better player, plain and simple. Throw all the numbers out that you want, per 36 don't mean anything if you can't get on the court. How effective are you on the bench? Overall, offensively they aren't even close. JR Smith is an awful passer and he just doesn't have a good idea of spacing, running an offense, etc. Stackhouse is a much better passer, much better rebounder. And his IQ is higher than he gets credit for. Not to mention, he's not a liability defensively.
The playing time is obviously going to be hard to see, mostly because J.R. just turned 22 and Stackhouse came into the league at 21. Stackhouse was a highly visible player on a stacked UNC team. He was drafted 3rd overall by a terrible sixers team. Stack was going to play a ton of minutes no matter what (and he was reasonably effective). JR on the other hand came into the league at 19. He came straight from high school and clearly wasn't ready, but seems to have turned the corner. Who knows what kind of playing time he'll see in the future?

Re: passing - sure. Stack was a reasonably effective passer in DET/WAS, although nothing special. He also turns the ball over quite a bit more.

Re: rebounding - how much better is Stack at rebounding? The guy isn't Jason Kidd or Clyde Drexler. He grabs 3.4/game and his career high is 4.2. You don't think JR wouldn't grab about 3/game if he were given some more time?

Re: defense - I really doubt Stack is any better of a defender than JR. Dallas's D gets worse when Stack's on the floor, and it's not like his presence has done anything to curb Chris Paul, Dwyane Wade, Baron Davis, etc.
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Old 06-12-2008, 02:07 AM   #12022
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

Joe Barry Carroll,

was a friend to the poor.

He traveled with a gun in every haaaaaand.

All along this countryside

He opeeeeened many a door.

But he was never known to hurt an honest man.

Last edited by Anacardo; 06-12-2008 at 02:09 AM. Reason: 'twas down in Cheney County
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Old 06-12-2008, 02:17 AM   #12023
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

Comments on the other picks:

Nate/JR - I thought Nate was a little weird considering Dre wasn't much of a shooter, but adding JR makes makes the Nate pick a real good one. You've now got a very pass happy offense, and Nate's inefficiency is all but negated by the fact that he never shot.

Kenny Smith/JBC - Pairing the squid and Kenny is really nice here because you've got a defender to make up for Kenny's deficiencies. Their longevity is a question mark, though. Efficiency and passing-wise, this is a great tandem. I wasn't sure about JBC as a pick at first, but after learning that you had Eaton as your current big man, that makes more sense. Now you can sub offense/defense.

Josh Childress - Josh is a solid, "can never hurt you" kind of player. I think that's pretty important at this stage in the draft, so I like the pick. Plus he has the coolest fro in the game right now.
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Old 06-12-2008, 02:19 AM   #12024
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

Stackhouse isn't as quick as he used to be, so his defense is obviously not what it was in Detroit. But, he was always a better defender than he got credit for, largely due to the pathetic team around him in Detroit. He wouldn't impress you, but he wouldn't hurt you. JR's defense is questionable at best. Could it come around with age? Sure. But, defense is a very instinctive thing.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jack of Arcades View Post

Re: defense - I really doubt Stack is any better of a defender than JR. Dallas's D gets worse when Stack's on the floor, and it's not like his presence has done anything to curb Chris Paul, Dwyane Wade, Baron Davis, etc.
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Old 06-12-2008, 02:24 AM   #12025
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

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Originally Posted by Victor View Post
lol, why do we even play bball when we can look at ts.
I don't get the hate for TS%. It tells how efficiently you score. Its not everything in that it says nothing about your rebounding, passing, defense, leadership, etc., but it does tell how efficiently a player scores. So when somebody says that Stackhouse is much better than Smith scoring wise, of course we're going to look at TS%.

I can't imagine somone mentioning home runs in baseball for example and people getting upset and saying "Just watch the games. Home run numbers aren't everything...just watch!"
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