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Old 05-10-2008, 12:22 AM   #1151
Victor
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion Thread

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Originally Posted by HighStakesPro View Post
I don't buy that the decrease in scoring is due to worse offenses and not better defenses. For one thing, it's infinitely more logical to assume that progress has been made over time in basketball strategy and player development, than to assume that players have gotten worse. It's not like in college where superior talent always wins out; in the NBA talent is roughly equal between one team and the next, so you need a superior strategy. It is a lot easier for a player to be good at defense than at offense, because you don't need the same degree of rare skillsets, it is much more about practicing, understanding, and committment. Offense can often be reduced one or two players handling the ball if they are quite talented, but defense is always team-oriented.
so rediculously untrue.
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Old 05-10-2008, 12:24 AM   #1152
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion Thread

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Thank god.
Franchise:


actually i have BETTER news for you.... I have to withdraw from the league... basically dont have the time...

one last thing... when you all are grading and judging players TRY not to get caught up in how well players are marketed in the nba today compared to before... if people did not know any better they would think that lebron (for example) was the greatest thing since sliced bread. DONT BELIEVE THE HYPE..... kobe can do everything that lebron can do even BETTER.. and some things that lebron cant do/has not shown a desire to do... ie be a lock down defender.

take care guys it was interesting...


Peace


p.s.. stop hating on isiah because he is a terrible gm.
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Old 05-10-2008, 12:27 AM   #1153
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion Thread

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KOBE IS WAY BETTER THAN LEBRON...... kobe is an all time great matches up with any sg in history... lebron is not on that level yet...
SGs in history include a guy named "Michael Jordan." Have you heard of him? He won six rings and anchored the best NBA team ever. Not only was he a great scorer, but he was a great passer and defender, and barely turned the ball over.

He was very good at basketball.
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Old 05-10-2008, 12:27 AM   #1154
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion Thread

wat

Stephen A has a deadline.
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Old 05-10-2008, 12:27 AM   #1155
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion Thread

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and some things that lebron cant do/has not shown a desire to do... ie be a lock down defender.
u gotta be joking. did u miss when lebron shut down kobe twice at crunch time. jeez how many times have i typed that on this freakin forum. also, shut down brandon roy in the 4th of a super close game. always takes on cp3 and wade (tho they torch him.) routinely destroys paul pierce. im sure theres more. but its really dumb and ignorant and you dont watch him play.

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kobe can do everything that lebron can do even BETTER
he cant drive and finish as well. he cant rebound as well. he cant pass as well.
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Old 05-10-2008, 12:47 AM   #1156
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion Thread

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so rediculously untrue.
Okay you can debate the degree of closeness, there are always going to be a few outliers and such, but the concept still holds: talent alone is not sufficient to win like it is in high school and college, otherwise the Lakers would have destroyed the Pistons in 2004. And that point isn't even that relevant to my overall argument so I'm not going to the wall to defend it, the main point is that it's pretty obvious the decrease in scoring is ue to defense improving rather than offense getting worse.
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Old 05-10-2008, 12:48 AM   #1157
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion Thread

And the brief and frightening reign of Ashy Knuckles comes to an end.
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Old 05-10-2008, 12:48 AM   #1158
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion Thread

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Come on now, you're selling Isiah short, he's also a horrible coach, commissioner, broadcaster, and I'm sure I'm leaving something out.
Womanizer
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Old 05-10-2008, 12:50 AM   #1159
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion Thread

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Originally Posted by Ashy Knuckles View Post
Franchise:


actually i have BETTER news for you.... I have to withdraw from the league... basically dont have the time...

one last thing... when you all are grading and judging players TRY not to get caught up in how well players are marketed in the nba today compared to before... if people did not know any better they would think that lebron (for example) was the greatest thing since sliced bread. DONT BELIEVE THE HYPE..... kobe can do everything that lebron can do even BETTER.. and some things that lebron cant do/has not shown a desire to do... ie be a lock down defender.

take care guys it was interesting...


Peace


p.s.. stop hating on isiah because he is a terrible gm.
I think you are taking the Kobe criticism a little to harshly. I am a huge Kobe fan myself, but I 100% would prefer Lebron in this draft. I don't look at this as a slight to Kobe.

Saying things like Lebron is not even close to Kobe, and Kobe does everything better is just asking for people to get all fired up because it is an unfair statement.
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Old 05-10-2008, 12:51 AM   #1160
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion Thread

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Originally Posted by Ashy Knuckles View Post
Franchise:


actually i have BETTER news for you.... I have to withdraw from the league... basically dont have the time...

one last thing... when you all are grading and judging players TRY not to get caught up in how well players are marketed in the nba today compared to before... if people did not know any better they would think that lebron (for example) was the greatest thing since sliced bread. DONT BELIEVE THE HYPE..... kobe can do everything that lebron can do even BETTER.. and some things that lebron cant do/has not shown a desire to do... ie be a lock down defender.

take care guys it was interesting...


Peace


p.s.. stop hating on isiah because he is a terrible gm.
Pick #31 now bitchizzz.

Movin' on up...
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Old 05-10-2008, 12:51 AM   #1161
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion Thread

Beat: He picks after me. Still 32.
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Old 05-10-2008, 12:55 AM   #1162
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion Thread

tdarko, you wanna trade picks for the next round? I'll help you out.
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Old 05-10-2008, 02:09 AM   #1163
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion Thread

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p.s.. stop hating on isiah because he is a terrible gm.
They're not hating on Isiah because he's a terrible gm, they're hating on him because his career numbers are meh. Nobody seems to care that at the age I'm getting him he played the PG position as well or better than anyone else has
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Old 05-10-2008, 02:31 AM   #1164
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion Thread

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They're not hating on Isiah because he's a terrible gm, they're hating on him because his career numbers are meh. Nobody seems to care that at the age I'm getting him he played the PG position as well or better than anyone else has
Magic Johnson. Oscar Robertson.

Also, this isn't an one-year league. You're getting these guys for the rest of their careers after the age of 24. Considering that, Isiah is the worst player picked so far, IMHO.
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Old 05-10-2008, 02:39 AM   #1165
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion Thread

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Also, this isn't an one-year league. You're getting these guys for the rest of their careers after the age of 24.
Well then I'm really going to regret my pick when we run through season 8 of the league...

For season 1, at least, I'm very happy with what Isiah brings and prefer it over what I could have gotten from a 24-year-old Dirk.

Ewing you could sell me on as a better pick, but I hate him on a very real level. I hate him more than Cartman hates Jews. I hate him more than Capulets hate Montagues. I hate him more than Kobe hates hearing "No." I hate him more than Karl Malone hates age of consent laws. You get the gist.
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Old 05-10-2008, 02:51 AM   #1166
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion Thread

The problem is, even if Isiah is better than Dirk "now" in season one of the league, which is disputable, you're going to wish you had Dirk in season 4, let alone season 8, when Dirk is playing at a near MVP level (well, I mean, not in this league, but in normal leagues), and Isiah is above average.

This is the problem with the J-Kidd and Shaq trades (god, I love hammering this). Even if your team improves now, it's not that much improvement, and you're way worse down the line.
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Old 05-10-2008, 03:00 AM   #1167
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion Thread

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Originally Posted by HighStakesPro View Post
I don't buy that the decrease in scoring is due to worse offenses and not better defenses. For one thing, it's infinitely more logical to assume that progress has been made over time in basketball strategy and player development, than to assume that players have gotten worse. It's not like in college where superior talent always wins out; in the NBA talent is roughly equal between one team and the next, so you need a superior strategy. It is a lot easier for a player to be good at defense than at offense, because you don't need the same degree of rare skillsets, it is much more about practicing, understanding, and committment. Offense can often be reduced one or two players handling the ball if they are quite talented, but defense is always team-oriented.
Offenses are not worse than they were in 1980, they're just slower. In fact, you can make an argument that they're better. In 1980, the average team scored 105 points per 100 possessions and had 103 possessions. This year the average team scored 107.5 per possession but only had 92.4 possessions.

Offenses have constantly be getting slower and attempting more 3s since 79-80, but TS% and Offensive Rating have stayed pretty constant the entire time.
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Old 05-10-2008, 07:30 AM   #1168
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion Thread

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In a way, you're right, but it is not specific to LeBron James. Every player, including Jordan will have a harder times faced with tougher defenses.(Well prime Shaq might be one exception)
SHIPIT!

I can't wait till i have my first matchup of the season and prime dunc guards prime shaq. WE'VE BEEN HERE BEFORE TIMMAY!
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Old 05-10-2008, 07:42 AM   #1169
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion Thread

damnit why is this moving so slowly. who picks next?
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Old 05-10-2008, 07:59 AM   #1170
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion Thread

I'm going to bed soon, so I won't be awake to enforce it. But if the 24 hour mark passes and Noah hasn't picked, then he is out of the draft(may be back in at the end if he can explain why he missed and promises it won't happen again) and we skip on to the next person.
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Old 05-10-2008, 08:23 AM   #1171
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion Thread

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damnit why is this moving so slowly. who picks next?
Noah. I've sent him PMs, don't know what else I can do.

https://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/sh...82#post4022182

Don't know why he signs up when hes taking a trip through the draft. I guess we can drop him?
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Old 05-10-2008, 08:24 AM   #1172
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion Thread

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lol, u cant even keep track of ur arguments. you said that kobe>lebron bc of his "killer instinct." umm ya, thats really about skill.
Whining to the press is not the same as whining on the court. Are you really arguing that Kobe's mental game is weak?

Quote:
when hes surrounded by talent its all good and everyone loves kobe.
I think he'll be fairly well surrounded with talent on this hypothetical team, don't you?


Quote:
point is, again, hes a great talent, with a terrible attitude.
His desire to win above all else is what has made him occasionally throw teammates under the bus and ***** to the press about poor decision making by management.

But you know what? He was right.

Jordan pulled the same kind of crap with his own team; it's just that nobody remembers it. He would reportedly intimidate and humiliate members of his own team at practice all the time. He didn't ***** to the press and create trade drama, but again, I don't see how that's relevant.

A happy Kobe is a dominant Kobe, and for the purposes of this team, he would be very happy.
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Old 05-10-2008, 08:35 AM   #1173
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion Thread

Hey Victor, where you have taken Lebron?
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Old 05-10-2008, 08:39 AM   #1174
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tdarko, you wanna trade picks for the next round? I'll help you out.
I see what you did there.
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Old 05-10-2008, 10:18 AM   #1175
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion Thread

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Its very close, and I thought about it a lot before my pick. Obviously with defense we have to go upon our own eyes a lot. I don't really care to get into an argument here, as "I think Duncan looks better on D" vs "Well I think Hakeem looks better on D" is completely pointless.

So all we can really go on is awards and some of the advanced defensive stats we have.

With awards, Duncan has been All 1st Team defense in 10 out of 10 years in the league but has never taken home the DPOY award. Hakeem was all 1st Team defense 5 out of 12 years, and also has 4 2nd Team All Defense. Hakeem won DPOY twice.

With stats, defensive rating is pretty much the best metric. Duncan has the edge based upon numbers, but it was a higher scoring era during Hakeem's career(although that could be attributed to worse defenses rather than better offenses, which I happen to believe to be the case).


I think its very close. And I think its silly for you to simply state your opinion as fact without providing any reasoning. I give the slight slight edge to Duncan based upon what I've listed above.
Hakeems D tends to be overrated imo. Duncans D >> Hakeem's D.

Hakeem was an excellent help defender, but was an average 1v1 guy, especially when they had size. He also had what I call Camby syndrome, falling in love with the rejection. Because of this, you got a lot of spectacular blocks as well as easy layups. Timmay is the best defender I've ever seen because he makes EVERY shot more difficult, and has a better feel for when to bring the help. More importantly, because he rarely leaves his feet he's always in good position for the rebound.

Once again Timmay's boring consistency and lack of ego has people underrating him, methinks.

BTW, there are two big men who are better defenders than Hakeem still left on the board, I wonder where they will go?

Last edited by Seadood228; 05-10-2008 at 10:32 AM. Reason: had to add more duncan ballwashing
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