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Old 05-09-2008, 09:41 PM   #1126
horizon
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion Thread

Just to be clear regarding Stockton: I not saying that he should not be picked in the first round, but just that it's not as easy as one might think to build a team around him and might take Nowistsky, Ewing and Howard over him ( I would not let him drop further however)
And Chris Paul scoring hedge matters a lot. If he could end up being the best six footer ever, it is not because he sees the game better than stockton, nor defends better than him.
I'm much more concerned by the Isiah pick, but others have already elaborated on that.
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Old 05-09-2008, 09:44 PM   #1127
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion Thread

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Originally Posted by tarheeljks View Post
as yo noted later, the same can be said for guys who score a ton of points. the great point guards are going to distribute the ball efficiently, the great scorers will score efficiently, etc. a team that is getting a lot of assisted baskets is going to have a smoother offense, b/c otherwise you just get a lot of ball watching and iso plays.
Yeah definitely, but I must say that I'm a big believer in the triangle offense, so I'm not convinced by the necessity of great point guard play.
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Old 05-09-2008, 09:45 PM   #1128
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion Thread

I love how your examples include Ricky Davis and Michael Jordan. That is a great way to compare players. Compare the greatest player of all time, and a player like Ricky Davis who won't be drafted.

You act as if having the ball in a players hands a lot is a bad thing. You want your best players to have the ball in their hands as much as possible. Yes, assists doesn't = efficiency in all cases, but are you claiming Stockton isn't efficient? He is one of the most efficient players EVER.

Great PG = better looks for scorers = more efficiency.

You really think it is harder to find a great scorer than someone who is one of the greatest passers off all time, who is one of the greatest defending guards of all time, who is one of the greatest decision makers of all time, and all while he can score 15-17 points and shoot over 50% from the field?

I'm not saying that Stockton> Jordan or anything crazy like that. You are claiming that you don't get the Stockton pick at all, which I just find to be ludicrous.

We are building a team, not a fantasy basketball team.
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Old 05-09-2008, 09:46 PM   #1129
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion Thread

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Nowistsky
I like this.
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Old 05-09-2008, 09:50 PM   #1130
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion Thread

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For the love of God can we stop this "he was a clutch player" , "he was tough", etc. line of thought. Dirk was better than Barkley. The stats back this up.

Duncan most definitely deserves to be this high, especially in our league where offense is plentiful and defense is much harder to come by. Duncan is the best defender of the era.

It was tough to put Magic at #7, but his defense was nothing to write home about. I could buy him being higher though.
Okay you're gonna have to help me out here. Exactly what stats back up your assertion? Not points, rebounds, or assists per game, nor FG%, nor PER nor TS%. And Barkley was a better defender especially taking the size difference into account.
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Old 05-09-2008, 10:00 PM   #1131
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion Thread

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you mean he doesnt throw his teammates, coaching staff and management under the bus every time something goes wrong. u mean he whines and cries and threatens not to play if hes not surrounded by all stars. u mean he never takes blame for his team underperforming and always blames it on his teamates and management.

gimme a fckn break. im sick of all this kobe is great mentality bs. hes a complete prick with an immense entitlement syndrome.
Yeah, his whining has a lot to do with his skill as a player. Good argument.

Plus it's not like he's Randy Moss or something. Dude plays hard even when he has ******ed teammates.
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Old 05-09-2008, 10:00 PM   #1132
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion Thread

the triangle has obviously had a great deal of success, but imo there are only a handful of players who can operate as it's key piece and have it perform optimally. it takes someone who can not only score in the post, but pass in the post. so you don't need a pg if you are running the triangle, but can you get the personnel you need if you don't have jordan/kobe/shaq as the center piece?
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Old 05-09-2008, 10:15 PM   #1133
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion Thread

I was listening to ESPN radio today. It's funny how fickle commentators are. Now LBJ is really overrated but Kobe is an unstoppable force. Do they realize that Boston is a really good defensive team and LBJ has horrible teammates on top of Boston being almost unbeatable and super defensive at home while Kobe has been great but he has better teammates and hasn't played as great of D with respect to Denver and Utah especially on the road. I just find it how stupid commentators can be.

Last edited by capone0; 05-09-2008 at 10:21 PM.
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Old 05-09-2008, 10:20 PM   #1134
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion Thread

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Yeah, his whining has a lot to do with his skill as a player. Good argument.

Plus it's not like he's Randy Moss or something. Dude plays hard even when he has ******ed teammates.
lol, u cant even keep track of ur arguments. you said that kobe>lebron bc of his "killer instinct." umm ya, thats really about skill.

sorry but kobes mentality is crap. thats my point. im not talking about his skill or physical talent. im just saying that he is a crappy teammate and his whining has hurt his team.

when hes surrounded by talent its all good and everyone loves kobe. as soon as things start to look slightly mediocre (not even bad) hes the first to point fingers and try to sabotage his team. im sick of ppl completely ignoring his years of crybaby kobe and saying that his mental toughness is what sets him apart.

well, it does set him apart in that lebron, despite having far worse teammates and coaches has never even hinted at the crap kobe has pulled. kobe is a cancer on 80% of the teams in the league. put him on the cavs the last few years and there is no way they even remotely come close to the same success as with lebron.

lebron plays basketball hard no matter what and is always there to encourage his teammates and doesnt undermine his coaches (even tho they are incompetent.) kobe whines and threatens holdouts and demands trades unless things are going great.

point is, again, hes a great talent, with a terrible attitude.
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Old 05-09-2008, 10:33 PM   #1135
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion Thread

Lebron's maturity, despite his enormous popularity and success at such a young age, never ceases to amaze me.
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Old 05-09-2008, 11:02 PM   #1136
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion Thread

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Seriously? You can't see why this is bad analysis? Hint: Pao and Bynum havn't played together much.
I was talking about in the future. i.e., in the next 4 years, I expect them to win a ****load.

u smell
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Old 05-09-2008, 11:04 PM   #1137
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion Thread

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With stats, defensive rating is pretty much the best metric.
really don't think it is.. extremely team biased. Granted, I think SA is always a great defensive team because Timmy anchors it, and I think he's a better defender than Hakeem, but I'm not just basing it on Drtg.
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Old 05-09-2008, 11:13 PM   #1138
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion Thread

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you have to realize that defenses were much worse during Jordan's era which can be seen by the entire league scoring at a much higher and more efficient rate back then
LOL at just assuming defenses are better now because there's no way offenses could've been better then. And this all has to be reconciled with rules being changed (no hand checking) to help offense out.
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Old 05-09-2008, 11:37 PM   #1139
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion Thread

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LOL at just assuming defenses are better now because there's no way offenses could've been better then. And this all has to be reconciled with rules being changed (no hand checking) to help offense out.
I don't buy that the decrease in scoring is due to worse offenses and not better defenses. For one thing, it's infinitely more logical to assume that progress has been made over time in basketball strategy and player development, than to assume that players have gotten worse. It's not like in college where superior talent always wins out; in the NBA talent is roughly equal between one team and the next, so you need a superior strategy. It is a lot easier for a player to be good at defense than at offense, because you don't need the same degree of rare skillsets, it is much more about practicing, understanding, and committment. Offense can often be reduced one or two players handling the ball if they are quite talented, but defense is always team-oriented.
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Old 05-09-2008, 11:45 PM   #1140
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion Thread

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Okay you're gonna have to help me out here. Exactly what stats back up your assertion? Not points, rebounds, or assists per game, nor FG%, nor PER nor TS%. And Barkley was a better defender especially taking the size difference into account.
What do you mean "taking the size difference into account"? Yeah I'm a better basketball player than Manute Bol taking the size difference into account....but that doesn't matter. Barkley is around 6ft 5in while Dirk is a 7footer. That obviously helps Dirk on defense. Why should we ignore that more than we should ignore footspeed, length, basketball IQ or anything else. If anything thats something that should be ignored EVEN LESS than things you can learn because in our league we could assume that some players would learn certain things better(for example, Dirk would probably be a better defender if Don Nelson had not been his coach for so long, as evidence by his quick improvements on D once Nelson left).


With that said, I think you're right that I underestimated Barkley a bit.
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Old 05-09-2008, 11:48 PM   #1141
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion Thread

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really don't think it is.. extremely team biased. Granted, I think SA is always a great defensive team because Timmy anchors it, and I think he's a better defender than Hakeem, but I'm not just basing it on Drtg.
Which well known defensive stat do you think is better than defensive rating?

Defensive Win Shares
Blocks
Steals
Fouls Committed(and the ratio compared to blocks and steals)


I would love to have better stats like the FG% of the man he was guarding on each play, but those stats simply aren't accessible. As is, I think defensive rating is the best we have to go on.
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Old 05-09-2008, 11:52 PM   #1142
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion Thread

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LOL at just assuming defenses are better now because there's no way offenses could've been better then. And this all has to be reconciled with rules being changed (no hand checking) to help offense out.
I'm not assuming. It makes logical sense. As athletes evolve and time goes by, we get better and better pure athletes...stronger and quicker than ever before. So it follows that those disciplines which are aided greatly by pure athleticism will improve. Now obviously athleticsm helps a ton of offense. However I don't think its everything. On defense though...you really have to be athletic to be good at it...theres no getting around it.

Moreover the stats back me up. Players today shoot just as good from the foul line and in 3 point shooting competitions as they did before. However they shoot worse from the field. That points to the fact that shooters are just as good as ever but defenses are better.


P.S. I've noticed that you post little comments like "LOl@xxxx" without really offering much info of your own a lot. Then when I reply you very rarely actually debate it, but instead you just move along to another little comment. The biggest example I can think of is our "Was MJ rusty" debate where I posted a ton of facts and you pretty much just went away and never responded.
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Old 05-09-2008, 11:56 PM   #1143
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion Thread

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That makes the Isiah pick even worse.
i was wondering when somebody was finally going to weigh the value of associating your team with a horrible future GM (thomas) or a great one (dumars)
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Old 05-10-2008, 12:01 AM   #1144
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion Thread

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I would love to have better stats like the FG% of the man he was guarding on each play, but those stats simply aren't accessible.
historically we don't have it, but 82games does track this. Not sure who the absolute leader is, but Garnett killed it holding opposing PFs to 34% shooting.
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Old 05-10-2008, 12:10 AM   #1145
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion Thread

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Lebron has more potential than Magic, Kobe, and Hakeem and if he works hard enough on his game/doesn't get hurt should be better than all 3.


wow.. i am speechless
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Old 05-10-2008, 12:14 AM   #1146
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion Thread

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wow.. i am speechless
Thank god.
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Old 05-10-2008, 12:14 AM   #1147
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion Thread

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i was wondering when somebody was finally going to weigh the value of associating your team with a horrible future GM (thomas) or a great one (dumars)
Come on now, you're selling Isiah short, he's also a horrible coach, commissioner, broadcaster, and I'm sure I'm leaving something out.
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Old 05-10-2008, 12:16 AM   #1148
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion Thread

I heard he was a horrible paperboy as a kid.
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Old 05-10-2008, 12:16 AM   #1149
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion Thread

KOBE IS WAY BETTER THAN LEBRON...... kobe is an all time great matches up with any sg in history... lebron is not on that level yet...
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Old 05-10-2008, 12:17 AM   #1150
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion Thread

ARE YOU SURE?
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