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Old 06-07-2008, 11:20 AM   #11451
Seadood228
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

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Originally Posted by xxThe_Lebowskixx View Post
the reason why these role players have more effective stats, higher fg% and ts% is because they take less shots and only take higher perentage shots BECAUSE THEY AREN'T GOOD ENOUGH. Do you think your 'specialist' would have such pretty stats if he was forced into the bulk scoring "chucker" role?

there are a handful of pure scorers (20ppg/10+ years) inexcusabley left in the draft. these guys would make much better role players for your team than actual role players.

drafting rondo here was ridiculously bad.
This really depends on your definition of "good." Do you mean guys who score a ton of points even though they are shooting a lower average than the rest of their team? My definition of a "good" player is a little different.

Look, building a successful basketball team is more about fit than putting the best players on the court. In spite of what some will say, there are very very few players who are do it all guys at their respective positions. Guys like Jordan, Duncan, and Bird are such players who were at or near the very best with regards to all aspects of playing great ball. I'd break them down like so:

Sexy, phat contract characteristics

volume scoring
efficiency scoring
inside scoring
jump-shooting
rebounding
playmaking
1v1 defense

Ugly characteristics that make up Basketball IQ

offensive mismatch recognition
off-ball movement (setting screens, using screens, creating space, etc...)
team defense
leadership

Intangibles

health
likability
off the court demeanor

The success of your team is going to depend on how well you've got these bases covered. Like it or not, most players will have deficiencies in several of these categories at their respective positions. I think fans tend to put too much stock into the very first category, whilst treating the others as less essential. That's a mistake because, if anything, volume scoring is the most abundant and perhaps the easiest trait to pick up in this draft. Come on, we act as if guys like Battier or Rodman couldn't double their scoring if they wanted to. The truth is they easily could, but it'd be at the expense of their efficiency, team efficiency, team chemistry, and ultimately their team's bottom line. More importantly, that's the one attribute that doesn't create problems if you aren't so great at it. Shane Battier pretty much does it all except score in bulk, but he's hardly a negative on offense. In fact, his three point shooting makes him extremely valuable. Aside from his ability to score at a high level of efficiency, he creates space on the floor by forcing a defender to stay close, which makes it easier for his teammates to put themselves in higher percentage situations.

Many of these scorers that have not been taken, as well as some that have, are great at volume scoring but pretty much suck at everything else. This makes them zero sum players, or at times less than that. These so-called role-players are generally rank very highly in everything except the first trait, which I've already said abundantly available.

What's more, these high volume/low efficiency guys are less valuable in a format like this than they are in real life. Most real life teams have only a couple of guys who can score efficiently, so their offense has to come from somewhere, and often times it'll be from a bulk scorer because he's simply going to do it better than his counterparts. In a league such as this where you've got a much larger pool of players to cull from, that becomes less of a necessity because you are going to have better players around you.

All this, and we haven't even scratched the surface when it comes to managing this many egos for an 82 game season. That alone would be enough to make me want to limit the amount of so-called "stars" on my squad. You only have to think back to the last few Team USAs and the 2003-4 Lakers to see how well that worked out.

Last edited by Seadood228; 06-07-2008 at 11:31 AM.
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Old 06-07-2008, 12:49 PM   #11452
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

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a) most players aren't content to not be taking a lot of shots. take shane battier as an example of the opposite. in 36 mpg, he was content taking only 7 shots per game. he averaged only 9.3 ppg. but what is special about him is what he did on the other side of the court, where he was arguably the best perimeter defender in the NBA.
b) these "20ppg/10+years" guys probably suck at defense
c) rondo was selected too early, but to use my posey point again, he was either the 3rd or 4th most important player on the celtics this year. as a 21 year old.



+1



they won 3 championships...i'd say they did aiight in their role player role. did they win a championship when they added malone and payton?
what if Malone payton and shaq had been three years younger?
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Old 06-07-2008, 01:00 PM   #11453
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

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what if Malone payton and shaq had been three years younger?
These are three guys who were the 2nd, 12th, and 26th pick, and all of them could have arguably gone higher (plus Kobe at 10 who could've been considered higher).

Three years before:
Payton: 22.1
Malone: 24.7
Shaq: 30.2

Add in Kobe.

I'm pretty sure that team would've won every game they played. That conversation is a little different.

The reason the conversation is somewhat meaningful with the players at the ages they were is because Malone at 40 and Payton at 35 are closer to normal players. And they won 56 games (granted Malone missed half the season and Shaq and Kobe each missed a quarter), and only 52 pythag wins, didn't exactly dominate the playoffs (that team lost more playoff games than the current Lakers team), and then got beat in 5 in the finals.
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Old 06-07-2008, 01:03 PM   #11454
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

it's pretty obvious that posey and Rondo were both selected too early, and from a pure value standpoint, probably far too early.
Since they're good fit, it won't matter that much because the popportunity cost is rather small
You won't get killed by picking someone three rounds too soon, where as it was a huge blunder too take someone five spots too soon in the first rounds.
Right now every fitting player can be deemed a solid picked, including Rondo and Posey
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Old 06-07-2008, 01:10 PM   #11455
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

Well Billy Beane and Bill Belichick both draft players when they want to, regardless of when they think they'll go, so it's gotta be a good strategy IMO.
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Old 06-07-2008, 01:11 PM   #11456
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

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Until people give me examples of players who were mediocre starters but excelled as a role player, I'll draft role players when I'm looking to fill out my roster with role players.
We aren't talking about mediocre starters, we are talking about good-very good starters.
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Old 06-07-2008, 01:18 PM   #11457
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

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Well Billy Beane and Bill Belichick both draft players when they want to, regardless of when they think they'll go, so it's gotta be a good strategy IMO.
it's especially good when you want to draft Tom Brady in the sixth round IMO
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Old 06-07-2008, 01:25 PM   #11458
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

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it's especially good when you want to draft Tom Brady in the sixth round IMO
don't want to get into a football discussion, but 1 player does not make a team.
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Old 06-07-2008, 01:30 PM   #11459
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

I suspect we'll have to define our terms better.

By "role player" I don't mean a guy who gets 10 minutes off the bench, I mean a guy who is generally not a scorer but still provides value in other areas. Guys like Battier, Posey, and ACG are role players. They're non-scorers. Filling your team with scorers who are deficient in other areas won't work, of course.
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Old 06-07-2008, 01:31 PM   #11460
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

Nice article on Brian Grant from 1999.

"He is the hardest-working guy in the league." - Tim Duncan

If I had a choice between Grant and Rodman, I'd take Grant every time--no question." - Vlade Divac

Some other nice quotes in there as well.

http://wweek.com/html/leada040799.html
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Old 06-07-2008, 03:01 PM   #11461
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

maybe he should have worked a little less hard.. probably why he got injured all the time
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Old 06-07-2008, 03:04 PM   #11462
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

Divac was obviously talking about Horace
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Old 06-07-2008, 04:32 PM   #11463
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

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Originally Posted by Jack of Arcades View Post
I suspect we'll have to define our terms better.

By "role player" I don't mean a guy who gets 10 minutes off the bench, I mean a guy who is generally not a scorer but still provides value in other areas. Guys like Battier, Posey, and ACG are role players. They're non-scorers. Filling your team with scorers who are deficient in other areas won't work, of course.
Battier, ACG, B.Wallace or Dennis Rodman are too good to be called role players. role players, by my definition, are the light/no-calorie version of these stars.

also, isn't the whole idea of role players usually limited to the playoffs/finals anyways? you never here about denver nugget or atlanta hawk role players, only bulls-spurs-lakers-pistons role players and how important they are. in a 28 year draft period, there have to be much better choices than posey and rondo.
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Old 06-07-2008, 04:49 PM   #11464
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

I think if you want to criticize the Posey pick on the grounds that tbach should have just taken a different type of player (20ppg scorer, PG, etc) than fine. Its a matter of opinion on how to form the best team, in which reasonable minds can differ.

But to just make the statement that there had to better versions of Posey that tbach should have drafted, well, that's just wrong. Posey is very good at what he does and I don't think there is a player out there that had Posey's abilities and is clearly better.

D
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Old 06-07-2008, 04:59 PM   #11465
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

sigh, mmbt0ne has disappeared again
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Old 06-07-2008, 05:18 PM   #11466
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

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you never here about denver nugget or atlanta hawk role players, only bulls-spurs-lakers-pistons role players and how important they are.
that's because bad teams' role players usually suck
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Old 06-07-2008, 05:23 PM   #11467
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

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also, isn't the whole idea of role players usually limited to the playoffs/finals anyways? you never here about denver nugget or atlanta hawk role players, only bulls-spurs-lakers-pistons role players and how important they are. in a 28 year draft period, there have to be much better choices than posey and rondo.
Interesting to consider which way causality runs on that one.
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Old 06-07-2008, 05:27 PM   #11468
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

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I think if you want to criticize the Posey pick on the grounds that tbach should have just taken a different type of player (20ppg scorer, PG, etc) than fine. Its a matter of opinion on how to form the best team, in which reasonable minds can differ.

But to just make the statement that there had to better versions of Posey that tbach should have drafted, well, that's just wrong. Posey is very good at what he does and I don't think there is a player out there that had Posey's abilities and is clearly better.

D
You're making it too complicated. There are a hundred BETTER players available.
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Old 06-07-2008, 05:29 PM   #11469
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

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You're making it too complicated. There are a hundred BETTER players available.
well that's just like, your opinion, man
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Old 06-07-2008, 05:31 PM   #11470
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

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sigh, mmbt0ne has disappeared again
checking blog....he updated it yesterday.
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Old 06-07-2008, 05:34 PM   #11471
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

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well that's just like, your opinion, man
haha. True.

I look foward to debating whoever I pick in the 8th round vs. James Posey. Hopefully I don't look like too much of a butthead.
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Old 06-07-2008, 05:35 PM   #11472
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

My interest is actually really piqued at this point. I'm borderline obsessed...been looking through tons of players I remember of having reputations as good defenders, pestering any old person I might come across, etc.
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Old 06-07-2008, 05:39 PM   #11473
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

I actually have no one in mind either. I'm not picking for a while so haven't spent any effort looking at players since I picked Caron.
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Old 06-07-2008, 05:43 PM   #11474
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

See, you'd think that having 2 picks within 8 spots of each other would be nice, but after everyone saying that Posey was too early, it's made me a little nervous that one of the three guys I want won't fall to me.

Anyways, have we resolved the coaching issue? Are we going to make this draft 12 rounds? Was there another unresolved issue?
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Old 06-07-2008, 06:20 PM   #11475
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

Who voted less then 5 stars for this? I want names.
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