I think the main issue is that guys who played more minutes and were effective starting will be more effective coming off the bench in limited minutes than guys who were role players in their time in the NBA. Because in most cases they are just better basketball players. I think this is being overlooked by many and role players that are currently in the NBA are being overrated.

Its an interesting topic though, and the opposite side does have valid points as well.

yeah I guess.

But then again these guys probably won't expected to be starters.

Which guys, the ones who were effective starters in the NBA or the ones who were effective role players in the NBA?

If my post was confusing, I think that guys who were solid starters in the league will be able to be more effective role players than guys who were role players during their time in the NBA.

It obviously isn't the case every time, but I guess the main point is that some are underestimating the ability of guys who were starters and played a lot of minutes to be very good guys off the bench in this exercise.

KLJ, I think people are very cognizant of a players inability to play major minutes. For example, Tbach (when picking Sabonis) notes that he gets a brilliant player... For 22mins a game. The reason Sabonis couldn't play more wasn't that skill-wise he wasn't capable, but conditioning wise he was. Again, Tbach understands this, and wont have Sabonis play 40mpg, but rather is going to have a backup get a lot of PT.

For my team, for instance, I am not sure of a rotation, but something like this seems fair:
C - Shaq (Age 24 real games/min: 51 games, 38.1 mpg, career MPG: 36.2) - I can likely play him at 36 mins then and not think twice, since this is less than both what he did at that age and for his career. It's not a stretch that I can play him 40 mins a game during the playoffs either.
PF - DC (Age 24 real games/min: 65, 34.0 mpg, career MPG: 33.2) - I can likely play him at 32 mins then and not think twice, since this is less than both what he did at that age and for his career. It's not a stretch I can play him 36 mins a game during the playoffs either.
SF (or SG) - EJ (Age 24 real games/min: 70, 31.2 mpg, career MPG: 34.4) - I can likely play him at 32 mins / playoff 36.
PG - TB (67 games, 29.3 mpg - 29.8 career) So I can't likely slate TB running the show for 30+ mins, which is fine; he's going to be a guy I will start and probably do the Jerry Sloan thing, which is play the first 8mins, come in with 5 to go in 2nd, and rinse/repeat for the 2nd half, so ~26 mpg. Playoff maybe stretch it to 28 or 30. Again, this is very reasonable.

I think people should (and have) these things in mind when they made their picks - there are some role players who simply are not capable of playing a 48 min game or such. (Basketball is exerting, remember that!)

edit: Some players obviously do play more at some points in their careers, like TB played 36.8 mpg as a 26 yr old - so you could stretch it to that point - but I wont, I will have someone backing him up getting 16-20 mins a game.

If someone is looking to move up, I'm fielding offers.

PM sent, heading out to play poker.

Link to this list so I can see who the undrafted player is?
Or put it in the thread, if we're going to offer up lists like this might as well have full disclosure.

I don't see why he should have to list the player at all, people have been making similar lists all draft long.

I sent him a PM, it's not like the guy is that good or he'd already be gone.

Thanks, but I am kind of skeptical that it is one of those players that you mentioned, the list is all starting players who play a lot of minutes and are top scorers, the names you gave are role players with < 1000 minutes this season. It seems kind of weird that a role player would be 11th highest in the NBA on that list full of high scorers and mostly stars

I looked at the ppg leaders for this season to get a rough guess, there are two people sort among the leaders who haven't been drafted, I'm not sure if it is either of them but I doubt either will get drafted except maybe in the 9th or 10th round.

Evidence

Do you think I have time to make things up.

hey clark, i think ur wrong. when i didnt watch the cavs, wiz or rapts i watched detroit. i thought prince was their best player.

i also thought big ben was best a few years ago. mebbe i was wrong. or was he the reason hey won titles?

That page doesn't work. I'm not accusing you of anything, but from the pm, it sounded like you were making an educated guess because you mentioned two players, that's all. And I was just wondering where JoA got that list, it's kind of an esoteric stat.

The numbers weren't exactly right. I read it off ESPN Hollinger stats. I can't post that link. Fixed the evidence post.

i even made a post about it lon gtime ago.

I calculated it myself using just the scoring parts of PER. It is unadjusted though. Once adjusted for pace Hollinger's Game Score per 48 minutes is pretty much exactly PER.

once again the Formula for "scoring PER" is Pts + FG*.3 - FGA*.7 - (FTA-FT)*.44

That gives you a total, once you adjust it for 48 minutes you get a PER-type stat. I adjusted the numbers so 15 was average, like regular PER, so it's on the same scale.

Of the drafted players, the biggest dissconect between scoring and regular per belong to Kevin Martin, Kevin Durant, Amare, Kobe, Magette, Melo, Barbosa, Granger, Redd, and AI.

The other way, the best "possession" guys are Wallace, Camby, Kidd, Paul (assists mostly), Calderon, Rondo, Dalembert, Marion, Chandler, Sheed, and Duncan

BTW, PER is essentially:

(Points x 1.0) + (FGM x 0.4) + (FGA x -0.7) + ((FTA-FTM) x -0.4) + (OREB x 0.7) + (DREB x 0.3) + (STL x 1.0) + (AST x 0.7) + (BLK x 0.7) + (PF x -0.4) + (TO x -1.0)

All I'm doing is taking the first parts to see how PER rates your ability to score. If we turn it into an "offensive" stat and add in Turnovers and Assists, the new leaderboard is...

Chris Paul 31.7
LeBron James 31.4
Amare Stoudemire 31.3
Kobe Bryant 29.8
Steve Nash 28.6
Allen Iverson 28.0
Chauncey Billups 27.6
Deron Williams 27.4
Dirk Nowitzki 27.2
Manu Ginobili 26.8
Kevin Martin 26.6
Carmelo Anthony 25.9
Dwyane Wade 25.2

the reason why these role players have more effective stats, higher fg% and ts% is because they take less shots and only take higher perentage shots BECAUSE THEY AREN'T GOOD ENOUGH. Do you think your 'specialist' would have such pretty stats if he was forced into the bulk scoring "chucker" role?

there are a handful of pure scorers (20ppg/10+ years) inexcusabley left in the draft. these guys would make much better role players for your team than actual role players.

drafting rondo here was ridiculously bad.

cliff robinson was a great pick and shows that you have basketball knowledge beyond 2003. he has a very long career and could do a ton of different things. he was a sick defender and he is the definition of the perfect 6th man.

kkf is right

Just a heads up, I'm gonna be out of town until tuesday night, doubt it will be my pick by then but you never know.

Guysmz, I fucning won the dratf. I jusr played NBAJAM tornament editin for the genisis and scored 68 points with danningn manning. 68 points. my 6gth man. GG ya'll

For copmarison my freid only scored 42 with hilary clinton so danny manning is at leats 30% better at basketball than hillary clinton is.

Until people give me examples of players who were mediocre starters but excelled as a role player, I'll draft role players when I'm looking to fill out my roster with role players.

LA Lakers 2000-2003
mediocre starters hailed as good role players

a) most players aren't content to not be taking a lot of shots. take shane battier as an example of the opposite. in 36 mpg, he was content taking only 7 shots per game. he averaged only 9.3 ppg. but what is special about him is what he did on the other side of the court, where he was arguably the best perimeter defender in the NBA.
b) these "20ppg/10+years" guys probably suck at defense
c) rondo was selected too early, but to use my posey point again, he was either the 3rd or 4th most important player on the celtics this year. as a 21 year old.

+1

they won 3 championships...i'd say they did aiight in their role player role. did they win a championship when they added malone and payton?