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Old 06-06-2008, 12:15 PM   #11226
ClarkNasty
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

It better be a face melter!
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Old 06-06-2008, 12:15 PM   #11227
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

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See, I think there are lots of examples of guys who as they got older learned to subjugate their game to others for the betterment of a team. Tim Hardaway is a great example. Finley, Malone, Payton, heck even Stackhouse has learned to focus on D and more team play and less on shooting. Maybe its a "survival trait" to keep their jobs, but there are definitely examples of guys learning and accepting new roles.
That's getting older, though. It's being utilized different by your team. Stackhouse still takes 13 shots/36 minutes. He'd take more if they gave him the ball more, too. He still doesn't pass. Hardaway shot 15.4/36 for his career and nearly 14 in his last year. He hadn't been an average efficiency guy for 5 years, either. Cassell in Boston is shooting higher than his career rate.

Allen Iverson's sort of the posterboy, I think. He's shooting about 6 shots per 36 less than his "peak" despite playing at a faster pace. His efficiency has gone up quite a bit. But Iverson still takes a bunch of ******ed shots, and I think that's the thing pople are trying to avoid buy drafting guys with a good ts%. The sort of shoot-first mentality that can kill a team.
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Old 06-06-2008, 12:16 PM   #11228
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

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C'mon. Ron Harper wasn't good in his new role as defender and 4th option instead of chucking first option? Stackhouse doesn't play better in his new role off the bench?
Yes, Harper was exceptional, and Stack is pretty horrible.

But these guys all shot the same throughout their career. So either they are taking better shots but becoming worse shooters, or they are still taking bad shots. Since most of the so called "elite" players become better shooters with age, that would lead me to believe the latter is true.
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Old 06-06-2008, 12:18 PM   #11229
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

I'm merely noting that TS% is far from "underrated" in this thread, and is closer to overrated than any other single stat I've seen people use. I'm certainly not suggesting that shooting at a low % is a good thing.
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Old 06-06-2008, 12:19 PM   #11230
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

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Allen Iverson's sort of the posterboy, I think. He's shooting about 6 shots per 36 less than his "peak" despite playing at a faster pace. His efficiency has gone up quite a bit. But Iverson still takes a bunch of ******ed shots, and I think that's the thing pople are trying to avoid buy drafting guys with a good ts%. The sort of shoot-first mentality that can kill a team.
Forgot about AI, a much better example than Lamar Odom.
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Old 06-06-2008, 12:21 PM   #11231
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

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Yes, Harper was exceptional, and Stack is pretty horrible.

But these guys all shot the same throughout their career. So either they are taking better shots but becoming worse shooters, or they are still taking bad shots. Since most of the so called "elite" players become better shooters with age, that would lead me to believe the latter is true.
I've never said they shoot at a better %. Merely that they can and do play better D, pass more, shoot less.

Anyways, I'm done making my point. I simply think your claim that TS% is underrated in this draft is wrong considering that a ton of the last 60 picks have mentioned it prominently in their writeup.

And when Epippen teaches McHale to not be a black hole, you're going to see that players can learn to do different things!
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Old 06-06-2008, 12:21 PM   #11232
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

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C'mon. Ron Harper wasn't good in his new role as defender and 4th option instead of chucking first option? Stackhouse doesn't play better in his new role off the bench?
Stackhouse still takes every possible shot he can. His his ORtg and Drtg are still bad, despite playing on one of the most successful regular season teams of the past 4 years. He's rebounding worse, and passing worse. His turnovers have gone down, though. But know, he's really not playing any better or worse.
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Old 06-06-2008, 12:22 PM   #11233
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

He's playing way better D imo.
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Old 06-06-2008, 12:30 PM   #11234
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

No problem, agree to disagree.

But stack is a good rebounder, he just doesn't do it that often.
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Old 06-06-2008, 12:33 PM   #11235
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

As for changing role/shots per36 affecting performance, check out Jamison's stats for the one year he was in Dallas, coming off the bench. Career highs in:

FG% 53.5%
TS% .581
PER 21.2
Ortg 122
And a career low in TO/36.

D
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Old 06-06-2008, 12:41 PM   #11236
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

Am I completely crazy thinking that Memet would have been a great fit for Hakeem? I like DWest a lot, but imagine the matchup difficulties you'd face with that team, having to bring your size waaaaaay out on the perimeter with Memo.
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Old 06-06-2008, 12:43 PM   #11237
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

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As for changing role/shots per36 affecting performance, check out Jamison's stats for the one year he was in Dallas, coming off the bench. Career highs in:

FG% 53.5%
TS% .581
PER 21.2
Ortg 122
And a career low in TO/36.

D
He was *awesome* that year. I wonder how much Nash had to do with that, though.
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Old 06-06-2008, 12:43 PM   #11238
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

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The only counter example I can think of right now is Lamar Odom's efficiency shooting up with Pau, but that's such a small sample.
well, it's Pau AND Kobe. Odom's post-Pau FG% is probably a little on the high side, but the spike is expected. That team just came together perfectly. Pau is a better 2nd option/facilitator and Odom is a much better 3rd banana than a 2nd.
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Old 06-06-2008, 12:44 PM   #11239
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

Also, I really want to trade up right now. The more I think about it, the more I really want the last guy on my list.
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Old 06-06-2008, 12:46 PM   #11240
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

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He was *awesome* that year. I wonder how much Nash had to do with that, though.
Follow Him, for Nash Head be the path to basketball salvation.
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Old 06-06-2008, 12:47 PM   #11241
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

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Follow Him, for Nash Head be the path to basketball salvation.
Hedo is doing a great "Nash Head" in Fadi's pic.
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Old 06-06-2008, 12:49 PM   #11242
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

I do think, however, there's some merit to what Clark is saying. It does get a little overblown. Like I have no doubt in my mind that Assani would have taken Derek Harper over Cassell and well.. f that noise. Same thing with Mark Jackson falling so far. No doubt PER/TS% had a ton to do with it.
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Old 06-06-2008, 12:49 PM   #11243
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

Damn, Pressey was a real good pick. I was hoping he would fall to nath in the 6th.
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Old 06-06-2008, 12:56 PM   #11244
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

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I do think, however, there's some merit to what Clark is saying. It does get a little overblown. Like I have no doubt in my mind that Assani would have taken Derek Harper over Cassell and well.. f that noise. Same thing with Mark Jackson falling so far. No doubt PER/TS% had a ton to do with it.
He fell because nobody watched that youtube. He goes in the second if people had seen that. Especially that ridiculous behind the back to Reg for the trey. Degree of difficulty on that had to be a 9.7 or something.
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Old 06-06-2008, 01:00 PM   #11245
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

he was really close to going in the 2nd with JoA, and if I didn't need a scorer I would have taken him instead of Cassell.

You mean that behind the head whip on the fast break? It's either that or his behind the back past from the high post to a slashing Reggie for the layup. The whole thing is just pure sickness. Hate that Clark didn't reunite him and Ewing.

The best is how Mark runs back up the court with a raised fist after a sweet dime.. it's like scoring for him.
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Old 06-06-2008, 01:04 PM   #11246
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

Yeah, Jackson was so awesome. I think part of the reason he fell was because people were looking more for huge peaks and Jackson was a guy who just played forever at a pretty good level. He's Eddie Murray, but people wanted Ralph Kiner. I think, in this case, Ralph Kiner is Terrell Brandon.
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Old 06-06-2008, 01:08 PM   #11247
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

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he was really close to going in the 2nd with JoA, and if I didn't need a scorer I would have taken him instead of Cassell.

You mean that behind the head whip on the fast break? It's either that or his behind the back past from the high post to a slashing Reggie for the layup. The whole thing is just pure sickness. Hate that Clark didn't reunite him and Ewing.

The best is how Mark runs back up the court with a raised fist after a sweet dime.. it's like scoring for him.
It was the behind the head on the break, OVER a defender, to Reg for the trey. The one after is sick to, where he fakes a behind the back with his right hand like he's going to pass left, then blocks the ball with his left hand (behind his back), and flips the ball to the dude on his right ala Pistol.

What's even more amazing is that the dude made all those sick passes and still had a AST/TO better than 3. That is just nuts.

This has gotta be posted again.
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Old 06-06-2008, 01:12 PM   #11248
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

I agree that TH didn't really play well at the end of his career but not many people either played or play well 35+ unless their names are Malone, Stockton, Reggie, Michael etc, and they went early. If i can get 11-12 good years from a PG, I'd be rediculous happy. I can also get a backup PG who can fill in for those bad years.

Mark Jackson is probally the best pure point guard other than Stockton and Magic who has retired that was taken in the draft. He didn't play D, he didn't score but damn he could pass and did it for a long time. I wasn't sure when he would go b/c of his problems, but I couldn't take him in the 2nd when I planned taking a PG.
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Old 06-06-2008, 01:20 PM   #11249
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

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I agree that TH didn't really play well at the end of his career but not many people either played or play well 35+ unless their names are Malone, Stockton, Reggie, Michael etc, and they went early. If i can get 11-12 good years from a PG, I'd be rediculous happy. I can also get a backup PG who can fill in for those bad years.
Hardaway was a stud, like I said before TS for that position is going to be a little lower than most.
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Old 06-06-2008, 01:26 PM   #11250
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

Victor's up now right? Does he have Harper/Prince/Amare at the 2/3/4 or the 3/4/5? I think he should go small and take a 2 here, yea? I have some players in mind.

D
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