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Old 05-09-2008, 07:29 PM   #1076
kidcolin
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion Thread

epip,

you're really good at just making assertions. Kudos. You're basically trying to say he was the best player in the year that KG won his MVP.. no ****ing way.

Celtics and Lakers rosters are pretty close. With Bynum I give Lakers the edge. Their bench is just so ridiculously good. Add in Phil >>> Doc and I like their squad slightly better.
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Old 05-09-2008, 07:30 PM   #1077
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion Thread

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Wow, I'm a ******.
You looked at highest that was best in a season right?
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Old 05-09-2008, 07:31 PM   #1078
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion Thread

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LOL at the Lakers being the most stacked team in basketball, umm Celtics????????

And hes been the BEST player for the last 4-5 years, and thats while Tim Duncan/KG have been in the league too.
i think this is the only year he has been definitively better than duncan overall in that timespan. he's certainly outperformed him offensively but like kc said timmy is an amazing defender and that can't be overlooked


edit: dirk is more efficient than kobe, but kobe is better even w/o accounting for his superior defense
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Old 05-09-2008, 07:32 PM   #1079
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion Thread

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You looked at highest that was best in a season right?
Yeah.
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Old 05-09-2008, 07:32 PM   #1080
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion Thread

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epip,

you're really good at just making assertions. Kudos. You're basically trying to say he was the best player in the year that KG won his MVP.. no ****ing way.

Celtics and Lakers rosters are pretty close. With Bynum I give Lakers the edge. Their bench is just so ridiculously good. Add in Phil >>> Doc and I like their squad slightly better.
Ok last 4 years (I had in mind the KG MVP year and didn't know if it was 4 or 5 years ago, hence I said 4-5).

And Bynum and Gasol have not played 1 game together this year and Bynum is out for the entire playoffs, with Bynum I agree the Lakers are slightly better than the Celtics but that has a huge part to do with Kobe as Kobe > KG.
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Old 05-09-2008, 07:32 PM   #1081
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion Thread

I don't think Kobe's really that much > Dirk defensively. I mean, Kobe's pretty lockdown when he wants to be, but he was conserving energy for offense a lot of those years. And Dirk's rebounding is a pretty big asset on the defensive end, IMO.
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Old 05-09-2008, 07:34 PM   #1082
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion Thread

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i think this is the only year he has been definitively better than duncan overall in that timespan. he's certainly outperformed him offensively but like kc said timmy is an amazing defender and that can't be overlooked
Kobe is an amazing defender too (obv not as great as Duncan, but is def a top 2-3 defender at the SG position).

Kobe is also much better on offense than Duncan has been in the past 4 years.

Kobe overall has been better than Duncan the last 4 years, Duncan benefited a ton from Tony Parker/Ginobili/Bowen in his prime.
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Old 05-09-2008, 07:35 PM   #1083
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion Thread

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I don't think Kobe's really that much > Dirk defensively. I mean, Kobe's pretty lockdown when he wants to be, but he was conserving energy for offense a lot of those years. And Dirk's rebounding is a pretty big asset on the defensive end, IMO.
Uh oh
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Old 05-09-2008, 07:37 PM   #1084
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion Thread

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I don't think Kobe's really that much > Dirk defensively. I mean, Kobe's pretty lockdown when he wants to be, but he was conserving energy for offense a lot of those years. And Dirk's rebounding is a pretty big asset on the defensive end, IMO.
Obv he had to conserve energy, he had no one else around him he had to score all the time. Put Kobe with a bunch of sick teammates like in this draft, and he can focus a lot more on defense, and when he does, he is probably the best SG defender in the league right now. (not league as in 80's 90's 2000's but league as in 2008).

And Dirk is a PF, hes supposed to rebound. And 9 rebounds a game is not amazing rebounding for a PF, heck its pretty average considering the minutes Dirk plays and especially when his other rebounders were Dampier/Diop.
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Old 05-09-2008, 07:39 PM   #1085
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion Thread

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Kobe is an amazing defender too (obv not as great as Duncan, but is def a top 2-3 defender at the SG position).

Kobe is also much better on offense than Duncan has been in the past 4 years.

Kobe overall has been better than Duncan the last 4 years, Duncan benefited a ton from Tony Parker/Ginobili/Bowen in his prime.
slow down, kobe is not an amazing defender. he is good when he wants to be, but his drtg is below average. last five years: duncan, 89, 93, 94, 94, 97
kobe, 102, 111, 105, 109, 105.

how about parker/ginobili benefited from duncan? why is bowen included in that group?


also, dirk's drtg is lower than i thought-- guess i've been listening to the hype too much. still think kobe is > dirk though
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Old 05-09-2008, 07:41 PM   #1086
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion Thread

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slow down, kobe is not an amazing defender. he is good when he wants to be, but his drtg is below average. last five years: duncan, 89, 93, 94, 94, 97
kobe, 102, 111, 105, 109, 105.

how about those 3 benefited from duncan?


also, dirk's drtg is lower than i thought-- guess i've been listening to the hype too much. still think kobe is > dirk though
I dare you to name 3 SG's who are better at defense right now in the league than Kobe when Kobe is allowed to rest a lot more on offense than he had to in the past.
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Old 05-09-2008, 07:42 PM   #1087
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion Thread

But we're not talking about right now. We're talking about the past 4 years, where Kobe has not been a great defender over that time. Maybe he could have been, but he really just wasn't. Effort matters on the defensive end.
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Old 05-09-2008, 07:44 PM   #1088
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion Thread

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I think you terribly underrate Barkley. Robinson's underrated (I'm biased). Kobe is overrated.
I love Robinson too, but who exactly do you put him over?

Barkley is great, but again I rate defense higher than most, and I'm cautious about starting my team with a 6ft 4in PF defensively.

Kobe is not overrated. His ability to play defense on the other teams' best player is vital in this format imo.
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Old 05-09-2008, 07:44 PM   #1089
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion Thread

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I dare you to name 3 SG's who are better at defense right now in the league than Kobe when Kobe is allowed to rest a lot more on offense than he had to in the past.
i'm pretty sure that if i sort the drtg then there will be more than 3 > than him in terms of defense. sorry, but i don't care what kobe can do if he feels like it, i care what he does consistently

edit: give me a break about resting on defense. jordan wasn't resting on d and he managed to put up better, albeit still slightly below average defensive ratings. if you want to give him a pass for resting on d, why should we assume that his offensive numbers wouldn't fall if he asserted himself? perhaps duncan could score a lot more if he wasn't absolutely owning on the defensive end. you can't have it both ways
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Old 05-09-2008, 07:45 PM   #1090
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion Thread

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But we're not talking about right now. We're talking about the past 4 years, where Kobe has not been a great defender over that time. Maybe he could have been, but he really just wasn't. Effort matters on the defensive end.
Last 4 years Kobe has been a great defender, he just couldn't use the energy, he is human.

It's pretty much impossible to use as much energy as Kobe did on offense (ball was always in his hands) and also be an elite shutdown defender all the time.

That is why in this make believe league, Kobe will be even MORE valueable than he is, because he doesn't have to use as much energy on offense, and can convert it into energy on defense. And if you don't think Kobe who dies to win, would be willing to use energy on defense you are crazy.
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Old 05-09-2008, 07:45 PM   #1091
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion Thread

I'm a Kobe fan, but isn't even close that Lebron > Kobe in this format. Again, Lebron's attributes work very well in the setting. I think that surrounded with legit scorers Lebron will mesh much better than Kobe will. Kobe will clash often in this experiment if you don't surround him with the right type of players. Lebron on the other hand can either be the guy you need to score 30, or have the skill set to control the game in multiple areas.
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Old 05-09-2008, 07:46 PM   #1092
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion Thread

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i'm pretty sure that if i sort the drtg then there will be more than 3 > than him in terms of defense. sorry, but i don't care what kobe can do if he feels like it, i care what he does consistently
oOoOOo cause drtg is the end all on defense.

lol @ kobe not caring about defense, like seriously. He is human, he gets tired, he has to conserve his energy somewhere when he is constantly asked to carry the Lakers cause their team sucked.
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Old 05-09-2008, 07:48 PM   #1093
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion Thread

I was looking at drtg last night and it seemed like even some of the great perimeter players didn't have great numbers(gary payton's best year was 102). Do defensive ratings heavily favor interior players?
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Old 05-09-2008, 07:51 PM   #1094
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion Thread

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I'm a Kobe fan, but isn't even close that Lebron > Kobe in this format. Again, Lebron's attributes work very well in the setting. I think that surrounded with legit scorers Lebron will mesh much better than Kobe will. Kobe will clash often in this experiment if you don't surround him with the right type of players. Lebron on the other hand can either be the guy you need to score 30, or have the skill set to control the game in multiple areas.
uh, what? Lebron > Kobe in this format ONLY if Lebron plays PG. of course that is without speculating Lebron's future stats (because who can agree on those), and going off of their skills as basketball players this past 07-08 season.
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Old 05-09-2008, 07:52 PM   #1095
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion Thread

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I was looking at drtg last night and it seemed like even some of the great perimeter players didn't have great numbers(gary payton's best year was 102). Do defensive ratings heavily favor interior players?
i think they have to be compared relatively, so it didn't make much sense for me to post duncan vs kobe's b/c i don't think a guard can have a drtg that low very easily. that being said i think kobe is coasting on a rep he didn't earn on his own
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Old 05-09-2008, 07:52 PM   #1096
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion Thread

I try not to put too much weight in Drtg and Ortg.. they're extremely team dependent. I mean, look at all the Cs players Drtg stat comparing this year to other recent years.
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Old 05-09-2008, 07:54 PM   #1097
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion Thread

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i think they have to be compared relatively, so it didn't make much sense for me to post duncan vs kobe's b/c i don't think a guard can have a drtg that low very easily.
yes, by the nature of basketball bigs have an effect on a much larger amount of shot attempts than guards, mostly because of the availability of help defense.
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Old 05-09-2008, 07:56 PM   #1098
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion Thread

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uh, what? Lebron > Kobe in this format ONLY if Lebron plays PG. of course that is without speculating Lebron's future stats (because who can agree on those), and going off of their skills as basketball players this past 07-08 season.

What? Are you being serious? Lebron doesn't have to play PG to make his teammates better through his distribution skills (See Cavs, Cleveland).

We don't have to speculate on future stats, we know that Lebron is a wonderful passer who puts up tons of assists on a team where he isn't surrounded by scorers, he must score a ton of points for the team to be successful.

I mean are you implying that we don't know already that Lebron is an incredibly gifted passer?
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Old 05-09-2008, 07:58 PM   #1099
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion Thread

Yeah, Lebron > Kobe for the purposes of this draft, and PROBABLY when's all said and done.
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Old 05-09-2008, 07:59 PM   #1100
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion Thread

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yes, by the nature of basketball bigs have an effect on a much larger amount of shot attempts than guards, mostly because of the availability of help defense.
right, but kobe's recent numbers are still lower than those of other strong perimeter defenders. i don't have much of a problem w/ saying why kobe's d may be lacking for reason x but i do have a problem w/ giving kobe that pass and then attacking duncan's lack of offensive production (relative to kobe) when duncan was doing more on the defensive end
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