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Old 06-03-2008, 04:35 PM   #10201
TheQuietAnarchist
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

Deng was not BPA at that spot for his skill set and is most certainly not an elite defender.
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Old 06-03-2008, 04:36 PM   #10202
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

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Come on, now he was not the same player in dallas after his injury problems.
But look at his first few years in the league. There simply no way you can say that the worst efficiency guy in the entire draft would suddenly be a postiive efficiency guy in a slower paced system. Most importantly: How come several other Denver players put up good TS%s in those systems. Here I'll focus on players who have been drafted or aren't eligible:


Alex English: Career TS% of 55.0. In Denver he put up 53.1, 54.9, 59.6, 56.1, 57.0, 56.1, 56.2, 54.9, 53.5, 53.1, and 52.2.

Calvin Natt: Career TS% of 57.9. In Denver he put up 60.4 and 56.2...and then 3 bad years in which he was injured and never played more than 550 minutes.

Wayne Cooper: Career TS% of 49.4. In Denver he put up 50.5, 50.9, 48.0, 47.7, and 53.0.



I just randomly chose 3 guys. I didn't cherry pick them at all, and if you want to look at more players then feel free to list them here. Why were these guys unaffected by the pace, but Fat Lever according to some would go from sub 50% TS to 55% in another system?
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Old 06-03-2008, 04:36 PM   #10203
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

dude went from Africa -> Britain -> borderline all-star.. I think it's fair to say Deng worked his ass off. But so do most of these guys.

One thing I'm not in love with is trying to turn Deng into a jumpshooter. He's got a decent enough mid range but can't shoot the 3 and works really well slashing on fools
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Old 06-03-2008, 04:38 PM   #10204
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

I looked at Deng a lot, and I would've loved to have gotten him as my 6th man. Solid defense and intangibles for sure. His falloff this year was a big scare though, and even before it he was a mid range jump shooter who didn't go to the line a ton which is very bad for efficiency usually unless you are truly elite. I very much agree that a year ago he would've gone much higher. Overall I think the pick is solid.
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Old 06-03-2008, 04:38 PM   #10205
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

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Originally Posted by Assani Fisher View Post
JoA and I weren't replying to you here.
Allright then.
Enough about the Lever pick in my opinion.
I thought I had a huge steal, but JOA and you made me thinks that it's just good/standard value.

By the way, I'm starting to think that MAgic should have been second overall behind Shaq.
Anyone have thoughts on this?
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Old 06-03-2008, 04:40 PM   #10206
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

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Basically I get 4 years of Grant Hill (thought it should be more, and it depends on your interpretation of the injury clause), 6 years of Kemp, 6 years of Sabonis, and Durant at 19 years old.

And as for Penny having more potential than Hill? Ehh maybe. Hill lead really crappy teams to 50+ wins multiple times, whereas Penny played with Shaq. I can't definitively say that Penny wouldn't have been able to carry a team, so that's where I differentiate the two. Also, in our format, where people are ignoring the fact that injuries aren't guaranteed, you only get Penny for 1.5 seasons.
Obviously don't want to get into this debate again, but if you feel like it search out my posts on Penny for detailed info on his playoff performance without Shaq against the best defensive team in teh league, the Miami Heat. He was abolutely out of this world in that series. I realize its a small sample size, but ordinary players just don't have series like that EVER.
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Old 06-03-2008, 04:41 PM   #10207
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

I wouldn't feel great calling Deng an "elite" defender, but he's pretty damn good. In fact, I'd say he was elite his first 3 years. Last year's Bulls team is really hard to analyze. Everyone dropping off considerably makes it seem like it was just a poisonous why-bother-trying atmosphere.
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Old 06-03-2008, 04:41 PM   #10208
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

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Originally Posted by EPiPeN11 View Post
Oh please I have been one of, if not the fastest drafters so far, and I made my pick relativley quickly after trading up.
completely agree here. There have been a group of guys who I can always count on to pick in a timely fashion, and you are one of them.
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Old 06-03-2008, 04:41 PM   #10209
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

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Deng was not BPA at that spot for his skill set and is most certainly not an elite defender.
Huh? Care to PM me the people who are better? I can only think of a few, and are all worse fits for my team.

And he is def an elite defender imo, like tbach said he has done a better job vs Pierce than anyone else i've seen has, and he also did a good job vs Wade in the playoffs if I remember (I think he was guarding Wade).
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Old 06-03-2008, 04:42 PM   #10210
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

Also I think Deng is very good value here he just doesn't fit Epips team that well. What exactly do you need him for?
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Old 06-03-2008, 04:42 PM   #10211
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

btw, God your depth is going to suck having made so many trades up, but I will say that I think you got the better of most trades.

Last edited by Assani Fisher; 06-03-2008 at 04:54 PM.
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Old 06-03-2008, 04:42 PM   #10212
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

I think my team is pretty good - nobody would enjoy playing against my team.

Just to recap: Gary Payton, Larry Johnson, Rasheed Wallace, Tyson Chandler.

Also, WTF as to upside. I thought you got a steady diet of their best season if they were under 24 as of now.
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Old 06-03-2008, 04:43 PM   #10213
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

Deng's a nice pick. Of course, we don't know yet if this year or last year was the aberration for Deng. If Deng reverts back to last year's form and Martin stays healthy, you've got 4 guys who can play at an elite level and should play well together. Nice job.
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Old 06-03-2008, 04:44 PM   #10214
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

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Originally Posted by kidcolin View Post
dude went from Africa -> Britain -> borderline all-star.. I think it's fair to say Deng worked his ass off. But so do most of these guys.

One thing I'm not in love with is trying to turn Deng into a jumpshooter. He's got a decent enough mid range but can't shoot the 3 and works really well slashing on fools
Well I will have him slashing/cutting as well, I just feel like if I have him work on his midrange game a lot more (I won't have him shooting 3's unless he shows he can start hitting them in practice) so that he can help space the floor although I do already have 2 great floor spacers in Billups/Martin, and McHale can also shoot the midrange jump shot very well, so that will help a ton.

Another good thing is when i'm playing Deng/Martin together, I can exploit mismatches at the SG/SF spot, since most teams will have one average/below average defender at one of those spots, so I can just give the ball to either Deng or Martin if they are being guarded by a weak defender.
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Old 06-03-2008, 04:46 PM   #10215
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

epip does have a very, very sick offensive squad though. Can do just about anything.
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Old 06-03-2008, 04:46 PM   #10216
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

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Originally Posted by EPiPeN11 View Post
Wow ur the 2nd person to comment on this, I don't why it would be a level/something I shouldn't have said.

I was just saying that he obviously works hard and should improve because of it...
1. Those are called 'puff pieces'. You see them all the time about how certain players have overcome so much and work so hard. They don't really tell us anything.

2. For the love of God stop using announcers or TV analysts to back you up in any way whatsoever. These people are on tv because 1. They are good at talking or 2. They are former players/coaches. The great majority of them know far less basketball than the average drafter in this draft imo.
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Old 06-03-2008, 04:48 PM   #10217
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

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Originally Posted by horizon View Post
Allright then.
Enough about the Lever pick in my opinion.
I thought I had a huge steal, but JOA and you made me thinks that it's just good/standard value.

By the way, I'm starting to think that MAgic should have been second overall behind Shaq.
Anyone have thoughts on this?
Am I reading this wrong or are you saying that Jordan should've been third? IF so I very much disagree.

I love love love Magic, but I just think post defense is so vital. I think MJ is a clear #1 and LBJ/Shaq are 2/3 in some order. After that I can see the argument for Magic/Duncan/Hakeem/Robinson. I think Bird should be next. Then Kobe/KG/Stockton make up the next tier.


But I'd love to hear your "outside the box" line of thinking as it may lead to good debate, so feel free to share it.
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Old 06-03-2008, 04:50 PM   #10218
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

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btw, God you're depth is going to suck having made so many trades up, but I will say that I think you got the better of most trades.
Disagree, I have 2 7th rounders, and I think you are overestimating the gap between 5th and 7th rounders per say, there are only a few elite level players left and they should all go soon.

Heck some people took role players in the 2nd and 3rd rounds...

Anyway I have a bunch of solid role players who I should be able to nab later on in the draft, and my depth should be just fine.
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Old 06-03-2008, 04:50 PM   #10219
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

Just being devil's advocate, but I'm pretty sure any former coach, and many former players, would know more about basketball than an average drafter here.
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Old 06-03-2008, 04:52 PM   #10220
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

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Originally Posted by Assani Fisher View Post
Obviously don't want to get into this debate again, but if you feel like it search out my posts on Penny for detailed info on his playoff performance without Shaq against the best defensive team in teh league, the Miami Heat. He was abolutely out of this world in that series. I realize its a small sample size, but ordinary players just don't have series like that EVER.
Now that you mention this, I do remember it. Obviously both were elite talents, and FWIW I, like most 7 year olds at the time, he was my favorite player.

Quote:
Originally Posted by kidcolin View Post
I wouldn't feel great calling Deng an "elite" defender, but he's pretty damn good. In fact, I'd say he was elite his first 3 years. Last year's Bulls team is really hard to analyze. Everyone dropping off considerably makes it seem like it was just a poisonous why-bother-trying atmosphere.
It was very good last year. Last year I would've said overall that Deng > Iguodala > Josh Smith (I know they're not the same type of player, but they're all from that same draft class).

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Originally Posted by cowboy2579 View Post
I think my team is pretty good - nobody would enjoy playing against my team.

Just to recap: Gary Payton, Larry Johnson, Rasheed Wallace, Tyson Chandler.

Also, WTF as to upside. I thought you got a steady diet of their best season if they were under 24 as of now.
Yeah, that's still one of my favorite teams. Great defensively and also will be good offensively.

And I'm not sure, but I think you get their speculative progression (each own person's opinions).
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Old 06-03-2008, 04:53 PM   #10221
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

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Just being devil's advocate, but I'm pretty sure any former coach, and many former players, would know more about basketball than an average drafter here.
+1, now I will give Assani that there are probably like 5-10 people in here who would know more than former coaches/players etc. but def not the average drafter.
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Old 06-03-2008, 04:53 PM   #10222
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

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epip does have a very, very sick offensive squad though. Can do just about anything.
+1
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Old 06-03-2008, 04:54 PM   #10223
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

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Originally Posted by EPiPeN11 View Post
Disagree, I have 2 7th rounders, and I think you are overestimating the gap between 5th and 7th rounders per say, there are only a few elite level players left and they should all go soon.

Heck some people took role players in the 2nd and 3rd rounds...

Anyway I have a bunch of solid role players who I should be able to nab later on in the draft, and my depth should be just fine.
I wouldn't expect you to ever agree with anything slightly negative about your team.
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Old 06-03-2008, 04:56 PM   #10224
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

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I wouldn't expect you to ever agree with anything slightly negative about your team.
lol eh whatever we will just have to wait and see, I think I will be able to do a pretty good job in the later rounds and I don't think I will have any depth issues (or at least not more than anyone else).
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Old 06-03-2008, 04:58 PM   #10225
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

Do you not pick again until the 7th round Epipen?
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